electriclady281
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@ummabdulla @1 male human @Romer
Ahh! So I understand now, but if they are companions, I am not sure that these women would properly be described prostitutes; not sure what that would be. They and the men that they accompany both use each other and benefit from each other's company. It seems to be a voluntary and private arrangement rather than an organized one. Anyway, that's my take from the information you give. But it sounds like he was also involved with prostitutes. It puzzled me that he wouldn't know that they were being paid, but I guess if he wasn't doing the paying that he could delude himself of their status. The idea that he believes every woman he meets lusts for him is risible to all but him, apparently, but it does, for me shed some light on the NY incident with the hotel maid and makes me think that he did attack her despite his denials.
@ummabdulla @MideastVoiceActually, "conservative" fits quite well with what you said. There's a reason why that term is also used politically. Conservative: 1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change. 2. Traditional or restrained in style. I think we were on the same page in that exchange regarding that word.
vasilievich and Lynda: It feels like you both have two personalities as you both frequently seem to be on both sides (US/not US; Christian/Muslim, west/middle east). I have a hard time understanding where you're coming from.
Lynda! How can you pose questions like that to a person unless that person were a participant in that event! If emotions can be stirred up in a discussion of opinions, which are particularly and uniquely personal and therefore neither right nor wrong, imagine how they might be during an event such as that in Libya. I'd really like to hear your opinion and your questions framed as wondering rather than accusations. You might have points worth considering. It's difficult to seriously consider diatribes, of which there are plenty here.
@LyndawithaY @Dianna Wilson @Abdul Ameer
"The teachings of Christ" are as reported after generations of repetition by various people, and it is known how a story changes after many retellings. Add to that the many languages used generations later to write down the retellings, the personalities of the various authors, and the various interpretations of those languages and authors. Furthermore, in those times, speaking in parables was the norm and as such, easily understood by those people, which is not the case today. Whew! That's a big stretch for me to believe that what we read today is literally the words of Jesus, who I take to be a man, every bit the son of God as I am the daughter of God. Let me remind you that barbarism and brutality have not been strangers to Christianity and that they continue to exist in some form.
@Nofretete @LyndawithaY @Dianna Wilson @Abdul Ameer
Nofretete, your English may not be perfect, but you make yourself perfectly clear and I couldn't agree with you more in all that you have written here.
Lynda, it's sometimes difficult to tell which side you are arguing for, but I will respond to "Who are the victims, who are the perpetrators? Are some of these US born, or immigrant populations, bringing their "cultural" norms to the US? Yes, that is a legitimate question, even if you don't like it."
I guess you know that all USers are immigrants other than Native Americans, and that most USers are descended from illegal aliens. And that perpetrators come in all sizes, shapes, colors, religions, political parties, social status, educational backgrounds, etc. Also that "America" is a hemispheric land mass; "Americans" live there. The US has appropriated the term, which galls the Latinos, and I can understand why. Therefore my use of USer.
Truth is subjective and belongs to all. Everyone has their own opinion; some opinions coincide. When learning about ideas or principles of others, it can be like the blind men touching different parts of an elephant (which feel so different from each other) and each believing that they know what an elephant is like. All the information must be organized and distilled in order to "know" or "understand" a "foreign" concept, so let's please all try to have some compassion for each other as we try to explain our beliefs and understandings to each other and make some sense of it all.
The Old Testament is considered by Christians to be no less the word of God than the Koran. It seems to me that they both need immersion in a strong disinfectant.
@ummabdulla @Abdul Ameer @vasilievich
Good question! But actually, there are those who believe it verbatim and want to turn modern life back to those ancient times. Ironically, unlike the Amish, they don't want to give up modern conveniences--just scientific proof. Seems to me the Bible needs a strong dose of disinfectant.
@LyndawithaY @Dianna Wilson @Abdul Ameer
Linda: Because of the way that much of the middle east has been late to modern times, Islam has not been "tamed" as has Christianity, which was once no less brutal and deadly than you describe Islam. Indeed, there is still way too much condemnation in Christianity--by men claiming to know the will of God and those following them for whatever reason. That condemnation can be as powerful and effective as death. And the Bible is as violent as the Koran in passages; and as peaceful.
@SaadAldesouky @Live Together @rmosby1861
Stereotypes are as useful to understanding as wooden baby's blocks are to writing; they are a sort of rudimentary grasp of reality that requires maturity to hone into a realistic portrait of a peoples. Unfortunately, it seems that not very many people mature and that there are a lot of old children walking the Earth.
This whole discussion is, to me, so very vital to us all. I regret that it now that there are so many comments and responses it is so difficult to make out what is being responded to. Nevertheless, reading all these opinions is so interesting to me.
@vasilievich @sasss31Uh, oh, another meltdown! Speaking for myself, "we" are the world, and are one, regardless of color or nationality. "It is impossible for an American to be such a bigot as you." Don't make me laugh, vasilievich!!! ROTFLOL!!! Not that others are immune to this disorder that afflicts the majority of USers--even those who are unaware or in denial of it! You, sir, seem also to be afflicted with judgementalism and US arrogance.
I agree with so much of what you say and see it as a valuable contribution to this discussion. Nuance is so important and so misunderstood. I really do, however, take exception to your "cherrypicking" paragraph because it seems to me that one either plays by the rules of a group, works to change that group, or finds another group--regardless of the subject grouping. I believe that to profess a religion or constitution, for example, without adhering to its stated principles is to live a lie. It's a matter of ethics and exposure to, teaching of, and embracing of new or different ideas.
I have heard of many reasons why some Muslim women prefer Islamic dress and customs and can guess at many others. It would be nice to live in a world where people answer only individually to God for their choices.
Regarding choices, the US, the self-averred best, free-est country in the world, where much is made of the supposed freedom of choice, does not, in practice, offer those self-congratulatory descriptions; they are illusions. Currently the country is in critical electoral "debate" (in quotes because USers really don't seem to understand the term) over whether the conservatives will take the country back to the dark ages or whether it will face the future and progress, prosper, and become truly free. Considering how "great," "free," and "mightly" this country "is," it is astounding to me that so many USers want to return to that imaginary, constrained distant past.
Peace be to you, too.
@DianeA @FundaMentalist @sasss31
I agree, DianeA, that huge strides have been made by US women in the past 40 years (and more), but the picture you paint is still too pretty for most US women, whether in the government, workplace or home. Our treatment is on a continuum and dependent upon the men in our lives and the government at any given time. It does not depend upon our God-given freedom or rights, and until it does, US women will not be free. As long as one woman in the world is not free or respected just for being a person, all women are not free. This is also true for men.
What you say, mosby, is true of SOME passages of the Koran, as it is of SOME passages of the Bible. Others are absolutely peaceful, loving, and beautiful in both as well. There are passages that can be applied verbatim to modern life, and others that I'd like to see excised and relegated to the dust bin. These holy books must breathe to live; that means they must keep up with the times and ever more modern mankind if they are to be relevant in toto.
@ummabdulla @Live Together @rmosby1861 @FundaMentalist
Isn't it interesting that even cynics everywhere are more willing to believe a lie than the truth? Amazing.
As for US women pretending not to be as good at one skill or another as men, well, that's just cultural/religious brainwashing US style--in spite of our famous sexual revolution in the sixties. Of course, it is not true of all women, and certainly more so than it was before then, but still, true of too many women--so much so that the young women of your country noticed and were surprised by it.
I agree wholeheartedly that talking to people from other countries is indispensable to gaining insights to other cultures; travelling to other countries, where possible, is even more important, especially if one can stay in another country for longer than the average tourist and get the feel of the country and its people and mix in (live) with them rather than as a tourist.
However, it seems to me that Mona speaks for the voiceless women who do suffer under Islam, regardless of what specific contry they live in. The way women are treated in any society depends on how enlightened the men of that society are, rather than as people of equality who have rights from God, and that treatment is on a continuum from respect to brutality. It's also true of the way men treat each other. My expertise is only that of a world traveller (not tourist) and inveterate life-long people watcher.
@Live Together @rmosby1861 @FundaMentalist
Live, I know and love Egypt and I know that what you say is true for some, if not many, women and their families, but not for all of them. I question your use of "civilized people" because it seems to mean the wealthy, educated ones. My experience in Egypt and worldwide is that there are all kinds of people in every grouping. Furthermore, it seems that the situation for women in Egypt presently is more precarious than before the uprising against Mubarak, in which women played an important part. I would like to think that you are able to do something to make your life possible for more Egyptian women. I wish you and your country well.
@Fee_dicioula @FundaMentalist @sasss31
Sorry, Fee, but you do seem to care about those thoughts based upon your response. If one woman is acceptably objectified, then all are. Our task is to work towards making that behaviour unacceptable.