Revkeyes
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@KaphenDePriest @PatrickRichard Thank you for sharing this, Kaphen.
@KaphenDePriest @PatrickRichard I want to try this again. First, because I begrudgingly see your point about my "dickishness" when I look back at the exchanges above with an honest eye. Second, because what does resonate with me in Dr. Paul's candidacy resonates to my very core (in particular, his military and "drug war" stances), and he is the only candidate with a legitimate shot who is speaking these truths. Third, because we all see the need for dramatic, fundamental change in our nation and world and none of us see that change coming from the existing Democratic/Republican power structure. And, fourth, because I've talked a bit to some local RP supporters who have cause to be a lot more patient and forgiving with me.
So, Kaphen and Parley, I will re-read your points without prejudice as best I can manage. You have each acknowledged that corruption is a basic human trait, which is my main objection to market deregulation of the breadth and scope for which you are calling. Now, having set aside my dickishness and doing my best to truly give a fair hearing to your thoughts, I recognize your simple, valid point that corrupt government regulators have both magnifying and domino effects, becoming, in the hire of corrupt multi-national corporate thugs, waaay too powerful an anti-competitive weapon. Regulation thus discourages competition, innovation and a natural righting of markets toward progressive improvements in products and services. (The examples of high tech and internet really helped me accept this.)
The decimation of our governments regulatory role requires a Kierkegaardian leap of faith for me and for most Americans. Even with the high tech and internet proofs, even with the obvious obstructionism and ineptitude of the FDA and the Fed, I have a really hard time accepting that our environment would be better off in the hands of energy companies, manufacturers and consumers than it is with our federal "nature cops," or that American workers would fair better without OSHA. I really don't mean to be dickish, but there were some very real corporate and market abuses that spawned these regulatory bodies in the first place. Again, I recognize how twisted these governing bodies have become, but I'm not sure the people have the will or power to bend a Massey Energy into safer mining procedures (not that the Federal Government has done all that hot a job, either), or that global conglomerates which are already so monstrously powerful can be brought to heal. I guess my problem is not that I trust government and distrust big business. Perhaps it is that I don't have faith that we the people are strong enough to right a ship listing to such a degree.
I infer from your posts that you believe my options are either to make the change to a dramatically different world view and strategy now or sink in my own stinking entropy and delusion, taking our country and possibly the whole planet with me. That's a lot to take in, made harder by the understandable anger and frustration in your communications to those of us who will not see as you see without a fight.
Now, obviously, we cannot in time of recession cut government spending without simultaneously unfettering private spending. I get that removing whole agencies and their reams of regulations would do both quite efficiently. I also understand that giving up our self-appointed role as world cop would save lives, energy and trillions of dollars, and, personally, I believe it would go far to remove our hands from each other's throats in this world.
I've always claimed to have faith in humanity. You've waved my own words in my face and called the question.
Damn. I need to go sit down and have a long think...
@KaphenDePriest @Parley Now you've both lost me. I am no government worshipper. I am not fat. I am not intellectually inferior to either of you, nor am I being irrational. We differ in opinion on some basic premises. You have great faith in the Free Market and deeply distrust government regulation. I trust neither enough to abandon the other.
So goes America. I wish you and your candidate well, Kaphen and Parley. Posters like PatrickRichard and Zero30 have inspired me to dig deeper into Dr. Paul's platform and its underlying principles. But I see this exchange with you two degenerating rapidly, and will talk to local RP supporters instead, as they know and respect me.
If your sole goal was to further convince yourselves how wise, bold, erudite and superior you are, congratulations.
@KaphenDePriest @Parley I'm sorry, Kaphen, but I don't think we can have a fruitful conversation around this. I respect your right to your opinions. I'm afraid trying to convince me to share your confidence in free market self-regulation to that degree will be for you like trying to teach a pig to dance.
I think I understand your view. Now I'd like to see responses from other Ron Paul supporters regarding it. Does KaphenDePriest's statement above fairly represent the view of Ron Paul and a majority of his supporters?
@Parley Okay, Parley, but government must function in that less than perfect world. So, I say that private business should be forced by the government to: properly label their products, ensure the safety of their products, provide a safe working environment, not make fraudulent claims, etc. This is common sense, Parley. I am not a fan of so-called "big government," and I agree that regulation at times gets out of hand, but, to me, the statement "Private business shouldn't be forced by the government to do anything" is so broad as to leave me incredulous that you would suggest it as a hard and fast position with no room for negotiation or nuance. Am I misreading your position?
@KaphenDePriest Please re-read my post and see the vital core of my argument. Jim Crow laws were passed and enforced by state and local entities until federal intervention removed them. The Jim Crow example therefore bolsters the argument for Federal intervention unless you support Jim Crow laws.
@thebillygoatkid and Zero30 -- I apologize for being so strident in my first posts. That wasn't helpful. I agree whole-heartedly with Ron Paul's stance on the military and the supposed war on drugs. I also agree, Zero30, that it was the people in other states who finally kicked LBJ into action on Civil Rights. The whole system WAS corrupt, but the threat of a growing number of discontented voters nationally forced action in states and localities. Had it not been for the media showing what was happening to peaceful protestors, it wouldn't have happened at all.
But you see, this is why I am so jumpy about deregulation of industry. Corporate America is very powerful. I, personally, would go so far as to say it already owns our government at most levels. Others on this thread have already asserted how weak are our current regulations, but I believe them to be far more effective than would be local law (want to see the profit motive at work, tell a land owner he can put anything he wants on his property and see what happens), and I suspect a too heavy reliance on state regulation would lead to an unhealthy race to the bottom among states to give non-resident corporate interests free reign.
Small business owners, on the other hand, live in the communities where their enterprises exist. They are far more likely to respect the land, air and community. Past and current experience suggest that they are the ones to trust and protect from the big guys. I do this first through my personal choices: all my meat and most of my produce is grown locally by people I know and trust. I do not shop at big box stores, going so far as to have the local shop special order for me items I need that are not on their shelves. This causes a definite economic pinch for me, but I have finally realized I must not put myself up for sale to the lowest bidder. What works for me personally I believe could work for an entire nation if we woke up and lived our principals to the fullest extent possible.
And this I wll say for Ron Paul: I believe his supporters, in general, come closer to doing exactly that than do the crowds thronging around the establishment candidates.
So, we disagree on some fundamental issues, but agree on others. Peace?
@_Zero30_ @thebillygoatkid I realize that my example is extreme. I was using hyperbole to show that there are times when the Federal government must step in. State and local law enforcement were corrupt before and during the Civil Rights movement. Federal intervention was the only solution.
As to the war on drugs and anti-authoritarianism, we're basically on the same page, Zero30.
@_Zero30_ @thebillygoatkid I respectfully disagree, Zero30, as long as we limit government attachment to safeguarding the workers' right to organize.
@AnthonyPittoreIII Take a deep breath, sir. I disagree with Dr. Paul in his EPA stance. Or are you telling me that rivers and winds respect state borders? I disagree with Dr. Paul regarding his views on the Civil Rights Act of 1964. At times it is necessary for the federal government to step in. I am no buffoon, and you do not bolster your argument by attacking me. Do what Dr. Paul would do: answer me with well-stated principles and facts.
Our constitution is a vital governing document. But consider the amendment process and realize that it's framers never intended to force us to remain in the 18th century, just as James Madison never dreamed of an automatic weapon capable of firing 6000 rounds/minute (AO-63 in two-round burst mode), John Adams didn't envision factory pig farms with thousands upon thousands of defecating swine stacked wall-to-wall, and Thomas Jefferson refused to recognize and help usher in the day when no human being would be assigned 3/5ths status, we must realize that some federal regulation unanticipated by 18th century minds must exist. I will not argue for illegal war, but I will argue against corporate "personhood." There are necessarily shades and degrees in the implementation of governance.
Answering the problems of the extreme left and right with extremes of our own will not solve our many serious issues in this country.
@thebillygoatkid "Propaganda media drivel?" Sorry, l'il kid, the plight of black Americans in 19th and 20th century America, the anti-competitive, price-fixing collusion of the mega-industrialists prior to Teddy Roosevelt's trust busting, the lethality of working in mines and mills prior to federal standards, the poisoning of the environment prior to late 20th century regulation and so much more are FACT, not propaganda. I am so sorry that reality is infringing on your free-market utopian pipe dream. It appears you place complete trust in the Enrons, Solyndras, AIGs, Bernie Madoffs, Lehman Brothers, BPs, Hooker Chemicals, Exxons, Massey Energies, Monsantos, etc. of the world. Go ahead. Dream of returning to the snake oil days of scant regulation and powerless workers. Enjoy recreating that hell-hole and then stewing in it!
There are elements of Ron Paul's platform that I agree with, but others scare me half to death.
Thank you for supporting my argument and under-cutting Ron Paul's by bringing up Jim Crow laws. Those were STATE and LOCAL laws that interfered with the most basic rights of citizenship. Thankfully, after much pressure, the FEDERAL government stepped in to fight that illegal disenfranchisement.
Oh, and business boycotts were a major strategy of the Civil Rights movement. But what happens when little girls are blown up in churches and young men are murdered and buried in shallow graves while the police look the other way? How about when state police officers savagely beat and maim innocent people? Somehow "you killed my daughter and turned attack dogs on my son, so I won't be entering the back door to buy an egg salad sandwich from you anymore" seems a little too tepid a response to me.
This has got to be one of the most poorly informed Ron Paul supporter articles I have ever read. Dye your skin brown, hop in a time machine and drop into Alabama or Mississippi ca. 1963 for a few weeks, then tell me that "private businesses shouldn't be forced by the government to do anything." Pick up and read "The Grapes of Wrath" or "The Jungle," or study the labor struggles (including child labor horrors) of the late 19th and early-to-mid-20th century and then tell me you trust "businesses" to set a living wage and provide a safe work environment for employees. Visit the Cuyahoga River in 1969 and watch it burn or talk to the folks still living whose lives were destroyed by Hooker Chemical at Love Canal, NY and tell me Nixon was wrong to establish the EPA. I grow weary of people who point to the relatively safe, clean and fair nation we live in thanks to regulation as proof that regulation need not exist. Lots of people suffered and many died to give you the life you want to decimate. To drop our well-being completely into the hands of those whose primary compulsion is personal profit is naive at best. We tried that for our first 150 years, and the results were not pretty.
Learn some history, then let's talk.