onetenther
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There are just so many ways to nullify federal acts that don't require direct confrontation. I personally hate affirmative action. Why not make it possible that an employer can be sued when utilize it? How can the feds interfere with that when civil disputes are always reserved for state courts? The federal government can't do anything about such a law and employers will cease to utilize the tax credits they get for affirmative action for fear of being sued for discrimination...etc...etc.
This brings me to another point which is states can use their exclusive domain of civil courts to interfere with federal law. Why not make it so that federal employees can be sued? Or citizens who assist federal employees enforce nullification laws can also be sued.
I think states should penalize its citizens when they help to enforce such laws. A neighbor who calls the feds because you have an 'illegal' firearm should face some kind of penalty. The toughest would be jailtime but that might be to hard to pass. The next can be a fine but then we may run into the argument that such laws interfere with federal laws (which is not really an issue for any nullifier). I think a novel solution would be to allow the person who is prosecuted by such a federal law to sue the person or persons who assisted in his prosecution. The neighbor who called the feds for illegal drugs, guns, bibles (obama is working on that), and etc would then face litigation and can lose his or her life savings. when you couple this with the state not complying with the federal law you create an even bigger field for them to cover.
"However true, therefore, it may be, that the judicial department, is, in all questions submitted to it by the forms of the Constitution, to decide in the last resort, this resort must necessarily be deemed the last in relation to the authorities of the other departments of the government; not in relation to the rights of the parties to the constitutional compact, from which the judicial as well as the other departments hold their delegated trusts."
Is this saying that SCOTUS's final authority on deciding what the constitution means only exist for the departments of the federal government while allowing states to reject its final authority? That is what it says to me. My understanding from this paragraph is that SCOTUS can't tell states what to do and its decisions over states are voluntary at best but SCOTUS can tell the different departments of the federal what to do.
A state may not have to comply with a federal court when its decisions are in violation of their rights.
"not in relation to the rights of the parties to the constitutional compact, from which the judicial as well as the other departments hold their delegated trusts."
Doesn't this imply that the judiciary branch of the federal government can't decide what are the 'rights' of each state? It seems to imply that the power of judicial review should only extend to the different departments of the federal
@anarchobuddy I agree with what you said but people repeat that constantly to the point where you are forced to use the same phrase. The term 'we' often refers to our immediate association like 'we' in the church or 'we' in the family etc. "We" in a political sense should refer to society as a whole without its government since government is nothing but politicians. They say "we" in this legislature are creating laws for the people. They never say we are passing laws for ourselves. Clearly they see a line between their organization (the government) and the society that it governs.
The advantage of seeing the seperation is that our associations remain a-political. They are truly private in that sense because our family may be a part of the social fabric but that social fabric is completely disconnected from government. The result is that our non-political lives become truly private but the minute you include government as a part of society then it seems that our private lives become a part of the state's machinary. The result is the over politicalization of everything because everything is political and that is exactly what we have today. If we say someone is conservative we then make assumptions that they are pro-family. How is that our decision to value family is political in the first place. It is completely unnatural to make such a connection between politics and family in the first place!
@theendisfar @onetenther isn't that what I said?
I always thought 'self-rule' was more about an individual having the freedom to guide themselves throughout life. Establishing their own direction and being able to execute their own will over their own lives. Government is not 'self-rule' by that definition.
A more important ( and something that infuriates me) the most about this argument is that it is often used to trick people into accepting whatever government wants to do. I would think that if I wanted absolute freedom to do whatever I want to the population I would want one that does not question me whatsoever. That is exactly what this and arguments like it are intended to do. Government can not do any harm to you simply because its will is the people's will. How can it hurt you then?
I would like to point out that the courts can not enforce 'executive orders' simply because the fifth amendment states that life, liberty, and property can not be taken away without the due process of law. There is no way that a court can use its power to enforce an executive order even when they are properly executing a law. An executive order simply gets the machinaray of the state moving to enforce the law. that is all.
Also, I believe the departments under the president can issue orders to move their departments to enforce the laws. They may be acting at the presidents command or they can do so independently but those orders can't be enforced in a court since courts only can enforce the law not 'orders' from other human beings.
This actually made me think of another reason why states can nullify federal attempts to enforce a law. The supremacy clause says 'laws' are supreme to state laws but it does not say executive orders are. Could a state prohibit the federal from taking action within their borders to enforce a federal law since those actions were initiated by an executive order somewhere? In essence, you would be nullifying, not the law itself, but the orders that move the machinary of the federal government thus prevent them from acting within the state itself.
An executive order and all federal actions that enforces gun laws because of them could be blocked in a state simply because the supremacy clause does not mention 'executive orders'. The law would still be in affect and it would be the state's responsibility at that point to enforce that law itself.
A balance budget amendment will not fix the problem simply because of the fact the government can ignore the constitution anytime it likes. Who would have thought that can happen? Anyways...the line item veto would be a better tool since the president can veto parts of any bill that he feels would put us in the red. The problem is not normal legislation but addons that congress attaches to it and a line item veto would stop that immediatly.
They keep telling us nullification is a no-go yet they keep attacking it. Now if it was as truly worthless as they say it is why are they attacking it. I suspect that nullification must, at least, slow down the enforcement of federal laws and, in some cases, completely shuts them down.
@mrducksmrnot correction:
The court rejected nullification because states were trying to decide for themselves what is constitutional BUT THAT WAS OVER THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF NOT ANY PARTICULAR PIECE OF FEDERAL LEGISLATION!
@mrducksmrnot I would like to point out that when they say the courts have rejected nullificaton they are usually pointing to civil rights cases during the 60s. The court rejected nullification because states were trying to decide for themselves what is constitutional and what is not BUT THAT WAS OVER THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF NOT ANY PARTICULAR PIECE OF FEDERAL LEGISLATION! Its a huge difference. I'm OK with courts striking down state laws that plainly violate the constitution (most of the time) but the kind of nullification that this site, as well as other nullifiers, promote is states nullifying federal laws that violate the constitution. It is not a question about the acts of a state in regards to the constitution but a question of the acts of the federal in regards to the constitution. States should be able to declare federal laws unconstitutional and prohibit them from being enforced.
"According to the letter, Wilson may be in violation of the Arms Export Control Act (the release of blueprints qualifies as exporting), and his site may have released technical information that is controlled by International Traffic in Arms Regulations."
This is precisely why some of us are concerned about so called arms agreements....
As for Pew research on medical marijuana laws...Why wouldn't a cunning republican politician use that to split the democratic party in half. Wait...got to make sure everyone is morally pure which means drugs are out of the question.
@tnmilfman even if the federal govt did have the proper authority to do some things in a state a state could still interfere with the enforcement of those laws and even prevent it from being enforced all together. There is no reason why nullification can't both nullify unconstitutional as well as constitutional acts. One would wonder what would prevent a state from doing that? The answer is simple, Self-interest of the state! States need the federal to do some things for their own interest in dealing with foreign affairs, hunting down terrorist, engaging in war, etc, etc, and etc. Not one state has a military that can compete with the one the federal government gots which is why the federal becomes a benefit to the states themselves. Why would any state reject whatever authority is needed in order to provide protection from foreign invasion? It is like parties of contract. each side fears losing the obligation from the other so they mutual provide what the other wants. In this case it would be protection from federal and the federal would recieve the right to have some authority. Of course, but only power hungry people would see that as a benefit to themselves but that is the way it works.
I got a feeling that nullification will split the democratic/liberal (they are not liberal but we call them that anyways) party in half. As nullification becomes a solution for leftish causes such as medical marijuana, gay marriage, etc, etc, that the left will drop them in a minute. Why? A great deal of leftist are autocratic authoritarians who have managed to conceal that thinking from everyone and nullification destroys all central planning which makes me think they will drop democrats who support nullification.
@going insane You are exactly right about that. A big problem is that so much of the press here is 'liberal' which means stuff like this ain't going to get any coverage in the media. The public will never know unless you mention it to someone else privately at a lunch counter.
I life in Arizona and I could have told you who this woman really is. I knew she was going to veto the gold and silver bill. I wish somene would start a recall for this woman. She can go down with Mecham.
@jimwalsh59 I agree. It is the smoothest way to nullify because the feds don't have enough time and money to enforce such laws without the state's cooperation. It is just to hard and may not even be worth it to them. Just look at marijuana nullification. They had a rally of pot smokers in broad daylight in CO without a single federal arrest.
On this topic, I would like to say that the federal can regulate the flow of drugs into a country since that is INTER-state trade but once it is within a state or Indian tribe then the responsibility becomes up to the state or tribal governments. That is if they want to....
@RayJ It will. It will get ridiculed in the liberal media but he who laughs last laughs best.
The best thing about this kind of law is that it creates an underground economy that isn't affected by the monitary policies of the federal reserve. It will still have an affect even if just 1% of all transactions are done with gold or silver coin because that is 1% less of the economy that is affected by the federal reserve. It may not sound like a lot but it may provide competition which ultimately forces the fiat currency to improve itself over time.
It would be interesting if someone could find a study to see the affect it had in Utah. I've traveled through there and noticed that things were a few cents less than what it is in other states. I don't know if that is because of the recent gold legislation but someone should do a study to see if there has been any affect whatsoever.