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@echampagne @etc No, sorry - that was actually for Mr. Petrowski directly :)

And no, it definitely isn't normal. I was addressing the issues with DMS' subscription based model. I know they're working on getting the previous accounts reactivated.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@John Petrowski @bolvyk @Martin Bay @echampagne Wait...let's ignore PL for a second. I did a bit of research just to understand your perspective: "We offer complete websites for one flat fee of $500 and no money down is required. You have to approve the design before an invoice is sent. This fee is all-inclusive:"

You are everything that is wrong with the web development industry. Wow.

Now wonder you have a propensity to marginalize Pagelines and their efforts...you marginalize yourself as a business model.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@John Petrowski @bolvyk @Martin Bay @echampagne Are you a business neophyte? The reason I ask is because the claim that a subscription based model is purely based on greed is patently untrue.

Firstly: Maintenance charges in software are certainly nothing new, so to insinuate here that the model is novel or unique is nonsense. Even within the WP ecosystem itself, many of the best plugins have shifted to a recurring licensing model, because it was recognized that a single-purchase model was not sustainable in the long run.


Secondly: If Pagelines' business model was based on pure greed...what is the demand that you should receive the value of a product including support ad infinitum? Isn't that greed? Aren't you making money off the value you receive from PL?

Thirdly: The fact is, in the long run, single purchase models don't typically last. If you're really wanting a platform that you can invest in and develop on for the long term, the sustainability and viability of the business model should be one of your driving and primary considerations.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@echampagne @etc Perhaps I've inadvertently caused some confusion. I can say, unequivocally, that these comments are not the proper forum to receive support, and you likely won't receive the support you'd like here. I know the forums have been restored, so you might want to take a look there for some official support. Most of the support you'd receive in the IRC channel is going to be that of the community.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@echampagne @etc @buddhatunes http://webchat.freenode.net/ - the channel is #pagelines.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@echampagne @buddhatunes Blog comments aren't a good medium for support. If you join the #pagelines IRC channel, there are individuals that are more equipped to handle your inquiries or walk you through certain things. It's just a better medium for support. The community that surrounds PL is pretty healthy, and most are more than willing to help you where they can. :)

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@redefiler @Lucas Garvin @buddhatunes @MaxwellBoardman @peterluit

"You've got nothing better to do than chastise people" - this statement has to be the prime candidate for the "hypocrisy knows no bounds" award. Your delusion is breathtaking.

There are plenty of people "complaining" here that no one is taking issue with. You're just being an obsessive troll - one who has explicitly stated they won't be a customer. Your purpose here is purely to disparage, not to "complain" constructively.

I can also tell you you're completely off base almost every time you speculate...your conjecture re: the hack included.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@redefiler @etc You're delusional or lying to yourself. Most of your posts cover the gamut from purely irrational to downright abusive. It's only when that fact is mentioned do you magically find the ability to post constructively, and in a tempered manner. The notion that I respond primarily to you, because you're complaining, is spurious.

"Pros" act with a sense of decorum.

Also, are you trying out some new comedic timing style, where you try an unfunny joke over and over, hoping it might be a hit on the third try? Either way, what is your obsession with my avatar anyways?

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Matthew01970 It's quite obvious it's all over your head given your penchant for the misuse of the word hubris. You do know it's a noun, right? The word you're looking for is probably hubristic. The fact that you didn't actually understand the post explains why you've made the blunder of claiming my post was "vicious."

It is mind boggling that you have the temerity to claim I'm being unprofessional, given what I was responding to. This must be a joke. Please tell me you're not being serious right now, because if you are, God help you.

If you can't keep it rational and rooted in reality, move on, it's not worth blowing out your brain cells trying to put together a cogent sentence or coherent thought.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@asabharwal @Dannyh @Matthew01970 Only the design tools require Chrome. You may visit the site on any of the browsers you mentioned. Chrome's JS engine is really just that much better, and PL is not unique in its focus on the Chrome JS engine for its dev.

The principle you speak of refers mainly to visitors, not necessarily what browser is used to access the design tools.

The previous product bears very little resemblance to DMS.

Firefox will be dead soon enough. I believe it's less than 20% market share at this point, relegating it close to IE8 levels.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Matthew01970 @nandorj78 @Dannyh That is correct, directory names are case sensitive on many systems, and either way, can wreak havoc on the WP systems that traverse the tree to find files. Always stick with all lowercase.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Matthew01970 I'm a bit perplexed. How you could read that as being "vicious" is beyond me. Perhaps you misread? A little over your head?

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@x3mgroup @etc @redefiler Don't be absurd. You have every right to be angry and complain. And you're absolutely right, complaints should be listened to, intently. But when complaining stops being constructive, and cross over into abuse, libel and assault, it certainly doesn't serve its ultimate purpose. Unless of course, in redefiler's case, they lack all basic decency.

For the number that might be disappointed in the shifts that PL has undergone. That's fine. They're not the type to listen to reason, or the rational basis of model shift either. They are either willfully ignorant, or can't grasp why a shift to a recurring model is necessary. All they think in their troglodyte minds is "PL BAD, ME HATE SUBSCRIIPPPTTSSSION, MEEE NOOO LLLLIKKKEEEY."

But here's the real kicker, x3m. redefiler is admittedly not a customer. In fact, it seems she/he made the decision long ago that they would abandon the platform. Furthermore, she/he states that she has no further interest in Pagelines. She/he is not a customer that is trying to provide constructive feedback. I don't know why you can't seem to make that distinction.

If you don't feel you've been treated properly by PL, and you have looked at their new software, and disregarded it since the value proposition doesn't make sense, then in the end, you'll go towards iTheme and Headway, and PL will have lost you as a customer. Vote with your money.

There's no need to become a embittered troll of a jackass who intends to do nothing more than rabble-rouse and abuse.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@cindyjbryant messaged

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@redefiler You're right, perhaps I was foolhardy to assume that someone so downright pugnacious and antagonistic was male. Maybe I was giving females in general the benefit of the doubt. It's typically a pigheaded broseph that's so hostile and acerbic, but no - you just have no class.

Regardless, let me get this straight. You came here, on a personal mission, to try to steer potential users away, not with calm, tempered, rational arguments, but by acting like a damned buffoon?

That mail you received was not personal, although with your sense of entitlement, I wouldn't be surprised if you thought it was. If you don't want to get it anymore, unsubscribe. It's that simple. It's amazing, though, that you are still basing all of your comments on conjecture, and based on your troll-time investment, it isn't for want of opportunity. You really are here to do nothing more than rabble-rouse.

You are the very definition of a troll.

It just so happens that you have a messiah complex, and believe you are bringing salvation to those potential heathens and wretches that would dignify PL with consideration! How unfathomable!

BTW, if that's what you gathered from the pricing comparison, you might want to ask someone else to read and explain the chart to you. Oh shit, there we go, back to your "semantics" again.

Get a life, and stop roid raging in the PL comments.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@cindyjbryant This is probably not the best forum for me to help you. If you can hit me up offline, I'll help you get connected to the PL user groups, etc, that will be able to help you navigate and get assistance with the framework :)

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@dgosine I understand your perspective and frustration, but I think this move is reflective of a maturation in the industry, and isn't unique to Pagelines. There has been an existential realization in the industry at large that one-time fees aren't sustainable in the long term. It's a bit like social security - you need an exponentially increasing user base to help cover the long term operating/maintenance/support costs of this kind of a product. This is why almost all substantial software has a maintenance fee associated with it, and why you've seen so many WP plugins, etc, opt for a low initial but recurring fee as their model: it's the only thing that's really sustainable.

If you're a loyal user, doesn't that mean that PL has been a valuable solution for you and your business thus far? Have you not made money hand and fist over what you invested in it? Without a viable business model, you just won't see the platform flourish over time.

Also, yes, PL will make money, no different than I hope you guys do. Although I understand why you might disfavor the subscription model, the monthly costs seem pretty reasonable, especially if you're a prolific dev, and come with a bevy of services/support/options that, at least in my opinion, are well worth the cost.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@DezW check out http://www.pagelinesdevcamp.com - they have some free base themes/sections etc for you to download :)

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@cindyjbryant Cindy, the other sections are coming. Some need to be updated to be compatible with DMS, and others have been obviated in one way or another. I can send you the customizer plugin, but you don't really need it anymore because of the way less and section files auto load.

If you'd like, send me a message on twitter (etc) and I'll show you how, and/or send you a base theme/section file that you can customize :)

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Mictlan I'm assuming you'd be able to upgrade your plan to the next level at a discounted rate, but I don't know specifically what that would entail, sorry. Might want to reach out to PL for that.

Re: sections, the licenses are no different than before...even on the free version, you'll be able to use the sections as you like.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@nextlevelplus It should be big enough to allow for the upload of the file. Or, you could connect by ftp, and just upload the unzipped package into your themes directory. :)

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@dgosine @etc  You are correct, it was the plus subscriptions that are grandfathered in.

You can use DMS for free on unlimited websites, but you are right, the credit link will reappear if your subscription lapses, but all other features already implemented will stay active.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@nextlevelplus You might want to contact Media Temple about that. That's do to their system's restrictions regarding file size. You may be able to override this with an .htaccess file or something similar, but you'll have to get with them about your options as all systems are different.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Brenden @PetraNiedermoser All products have an EOL, and warranties almost always are dictated by terms of lifetime of the product, not lifetime of a person. This is especially true in the software industry. I'm not sure why you have unique expectation of PL...

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Brenden @AlexJuchniewicz If it makes you feel any better, if your subscription lapses, all of the settings, etc remain. The site functions as is, you just won't be able to make changes to those options that require a subscription.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Brenden @AlexJuchniewicz @simplesites I don't think anything was "thrown out" - the attack blasted everything indiscriminately. DMS just has the higher priority (as expected) right now.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@knowtheoffers You don't need to pay the subscription to use DMS. As well, those with a previous dev subscription are rewarded with significantly reduced subscription costs since they are grandfathered in.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Brenden @Invisioning Development on DMS is exponentially faster than v2. As well, the end client is much more empowered. The transitions aren't all smooth from my experience, but the investment is well worth it, and will probably be made up for by the end of the project in the efficiencies gained with DMS. If you have some questions, there are some IRC channels where you can collaborate or ask questions of other devs. Let me know if you're interested.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Invisioning @arpowers @MelodySharp PL will probably have to respond in an official capacity regarding the plans for long term support, but at least in the short term, I believe support is planned and in effect.

Regarding the plugins/sections that you've purchased, it is up to the author to make sure they are compatible and working with DMS. There are quite a few architectural changes to the framework, so it is more likely than not a prior v2 plugin/section would not be compatible. However, I know most of the major devs like Nick, Ellen, Aleks, Evan, etc have been working to make sure their stuff is DMS compatible :)

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@leahwc7 That is correct - the chrome js engine is best of breed, and for technical as well as performance reasons, dev was concentrated on that engine.

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@MelodySharp This should be handled automatically, although because of the technical issues, I believe they are a bit behind schedule. :)

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Mictlan My understanding is that the individuals that were on the $14 plan will be grandfathered into business. Those with the $19 plan will be grandfathered into the developer plan. Not a bad deal :)

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@redefiler You are easily one of the most caustic and belligerent people I've ever encountered, and that says a lot considering it's the internet. You really have some issues.

Do you possess some misplaced sense of self-worth which manifests as an entitlement complex? Are you always so apoplectic with rage? Do you really lack any sense of decorum, or is this all just some crazy machismo act made poetically ironic by your brony image?

Really, why are you here? If PL is as incompetent and treacherous as you purport them to be, what are you still doing here? Why would you even endeavor to learn more about the product? Why would any company, PL included, want anything to do with you when you carry yourself in such a manner? I really doubt you're going to be missed. Good riddance.

If you're really looking for more information, you can find the answer to your question about the differences here: http://www.pagelines.com/pricing/

1 year, 4 months ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@YatinMulay If your expectations are "visual composer" - you're going to be blown away.

1 year, 4 months ago on What competitors think about DMS

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@Nolan_WebDesign Very few serious firms will sign an NDA without knowing the scope of what the NDA is supposed to cover. This is especially true with VCs, who refuse to be encumbered by the liability that might be associated with an NDA, particularly one that might encroach on other projects. Furthermore, an NDA is only as strong as your willingness to enforce it. It certainly doesn't shackle the company/individual physically.

1 year, 4 months ago on What competitors think about DMS

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@redefiler What in God's name are you blathering about?

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@redefiler No, but you obviously wanted to be taken seriously. Now that your buffoonery has ceased a bit, and your stated concerns a tad bit more constructive and lucid, I'm sure some dialog can be had.

P.S. With all due respect, if any is in fact due, you are contemptible at rhetorical wit. Also, for someone that was "done" a while ago, you still seem to have quite an appetite for banter. Pray tell, when will you actually be done?

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@redefiler You really don't take concessionary gestures well, do you? You're objections, in this case, are distinct from the ones expressed thus far. The other objections, at least as expressed, were erroneous or manifestly irrational. You just happened to turn more sane over time.

...and if this constitutes a "disaster" to you...you really are small time...

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@redefiler Fanboy? That's a bit cliche nowadays, don't you think? Either way, I've been called worse.

I don't think anyone, Pagelines or not, has any issues with rational objections, of which this conversation has produced but few. I most graciously reiterate that your latter objections were tempered, rational and hopefully well received.

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@redefiler See NOW you're arguing semantics - but, wait...just above you said had no interest in "engaging in semantics." You certainly are fickle!

If the handful of individuals here is in any way indicative of the weight of resistance PL will experience by shifting their business model, their success can already be measured.  Clever attempt at trying to induce action by PL, though. You're quite the conniving one, aren't you. Again, kudos.

If you want to invest in a platform and make it part of your workflow, you should want it to be wildly successful, healthy and sustainable. It only serves to benefit you. If you don't see the value in it once it is released, then it is settled, isn't it?

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@redefiler @etc @jancaynes @musicman75It seems like it was addressed to me, but as before, not everything is as it seems, so maybe you're right. But wouldn't that even be more childish?

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@jancaynes @etc @musicman75 Why put me on notice? Why not just do it? This is a bit puerile, no?

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@redefiler Poetically, you likely misused "semantics" in that sentence. Let me be clear, I speak for myself - but either way, that's the most rational thing I've heard from you yet! Kudos.

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@redefiler  Once again, the car analogy was intended to clarify the notion of paying for value add services. The context behind your misuse of "own" was and still is irrelevant. I even used the example outside the scope of our discussion.

You're the one treating your clients like imbeciles, as if they can't possibly comprehend the value proposition of being provided value add services for a particular fee. If they no longer want those additional features, they can stop paying for it. It's that simple. If you're worried about having to manage their expectations, just don't use those features to begin with. I still don't understand what you're up in arms about. The subscription is wholly optional. So, it's either you that can't comprehend that, or you assume your clients are incapable and you're trying to insulate them from those considerations.

The nature or profile of my clients is irrelevant, although I rarely work with the technical type. My client's expectations are managed fully.

Re: your question of the nature of the decision to be Chrome only, it's probably a little of both. I can't speak to what the futures holds, but as of right now, it is Chrome only.

Frankly, I couldn't care less whether you think I'm arrogant, petty or a swell guy. This isn't an internet popularity contest. I'm sorry you care so much. As I already told you, I have no problem with disagreement, I mentioned that explicitly in my previous response to you. I'm intolerant of bad argumentation, erroneous assumptions, logical fallacies and the like. So sue me.

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@redefiler @etc @TampaGreg Why is the car analogy flawed? If your clients would like the added benefit of the features afforded by the subscription, they can make that judgment, no different than any value add subscription with other products. That's the analogy. What you actually meant by 'owned' is irrelevant.

On that note: It's amazing how many people here supposedly have bumbling lummoxes for clients who can't seem to understand these concepts.

Access to the drag and drop interface will be Chrome only. It's not unusual for a highly dynamic, js based interface to be released on Chrome only, especially at the beginning. DMS certainly wouldn't be the first- there are technical considerations in play. There are no additional "dev edition tools," subscription or not.

If you expected a huge fight from me, you won't get it. I have no problem with measured opinions and concerns, like yours. The last thing I want, though, is to have a few characters foment anger based on misconceptions or intentional mischaracterizations about a platform that I use and develop on. As I understand it, Pagelines is in use on hundreds of thousands of sites - the few people clamoring here certainly isn't representative of the developer community at large, as much as they would like to think they are. There's just no point in having the whole conversation usurped by irrational and erroneous notions.

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@musicman75  Do you have all the facts? No. Are you making conclusory and impulsive judgments based on faulty assumptions? Yes. Don't see how that could be seen as anything but impetuousness.  Superficially clever, though - use the ol' relativism routine as a defense.

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@musicman75The problem is, you've done nothing but surmise up to this point. I've done nothing so far but correct misinformation. Only on the internet would someone claim that to be a cardinal offense.

@jancaynes I'm not going to get into some petulant semantic argument with you. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you were truly making an inquiry. An inquiry is probably more effective if it isn't written rhetorically and within a shroud of caustic diatribe. The answer, regardless, to your question is no - the lack of a subscription will not preclude you from implementing sliders and such in your site. For someone who's so worried about snark noise, you sure have a lot of chatter to provide yourself. Hypocrisy as it seems, knows no bounds.

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@musicman75 @WesleyHoward I may or may not know more than you, but the point is - I'm not being conclusory in my judgments. If it was merely concern that you were expressing, that'd be one thing, but you are actively pushing forth erroneous claims. Of course now, when you've been brought to bear re: your previous impetuousness, all of a sudden you can approach the subject in a tempered fashion. I think you're well seated in your concern, but let's not pretend that that was the tone and rationale of your responses from the beginning. You're more than welcome to share your opinion, and in the same vein, I'm allowed to point out where the premise that governs that opinion is wrong.

I'm not a PL employee, although I have most likely seen more of DMS than you have.

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@jancaynes As written, that "question" seems plenty rhetorical.

I don't work for Pagelines - I'm just an observer that's amazed at how a group of seemingly intelligent people can get together and work themselves up into a frenzy with misinformation. So you need not impute my "snark" on Pagelines.

I speak for myself, and humanity.

1 year, 4 months ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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