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@HistorianDude @chillydogg1 

How many times do I have to say I don't care if it's dicta. They said it.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

So what? They said I repeated it and you called me ignorant. If I am they are. If they are you have to question the rest of the opinion.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

It doesn't say:

" A person born out of the jurisdiction of the United States can only become a citizen by being naturalized, either by treaty, as in the case of the annexation of foreign territory, or by authority of Congress, exercised either by declaring certain classes of persons to be citizens, as in the enactments conferring citizenship upon foreign-born children of citizens,..."  ?

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

I'm just saying what they said.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

So the court was wrong about foreign born children but right about Wong. Got it.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

You're calling the Wong court ignorant.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

I'm NOT saying it's binding. I'm saying it's true.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

So Cruz is ineligible and nbC doesn't mean born a citizen. Unless you want to rethink naturalized natural born Citizen.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

I'm just following Wong.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

Thrown out on demurrer.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

That's funny because Congress sure seems to think foreign born citizens need naturalization laws.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

I'm talking about Cruz and your ridiculous citizen at birth definition.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

The fact is this is the court that you refer to defend your position and they say foreign born citizens are naturalized and it's eating you alive.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@HistorianDude @chillydogg1 

Who cares if it's dicta. It's six Justices saying foreign born citizens are naturalized.  If they are wrong about this what else are they wrong about? You're throwing your guys under the bus.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

I'm sorry Chief Justice Gray wasn't an expert? The five others that voted with him didn't know what they were talking about?  Who am I to take the words of six Supreme Courts Justices over that of a law professor?

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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It's not about whether it's precedent or not it's whether it's right or wrong. You hail Gray as a genius when he supports you and an idiot when he doesn't. Oh, and the five other Justices. The fact is YOU refuse to accept it.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

Right after you state that natural born Citizen does not mean born a citizen because foreign born citizens are naturalized at birth. 

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

No I love it because it says foreign born children are naturalized. But I got that wrong right? I do have to admit that when half of a person's argument is proven wrong like you guys have done it kind of makes me doubt the veracity of the other half. I mean seriously how could six Supreme Court Justices get it so, so, so utterly wrong about foreign born children? Not to mention the Congress that passed the Act of '95 and our current citizenship laws which also specifically deal with foreign born children.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

I get it man. Gray was 100% right about those born in the country and 100% wrong about those born outside it. You'd think the Chief Justice would know better.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@HistorianDude @chillydogg1 

Hey I get it man. Anything that Gray said that supports your position is precedent and correct while anything that doesn't is meaningless and wrong. 

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@HistorianDude @chillydogg1 

Oh I see. When it benefits your side it's ratio decidendi but when it doesn't it's mere dicta. 

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

No I said he was naturalized by authority of Congress.
You skipped over the "naturalized" part.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 

The part where Cruz is naturalized by authority of Congress.
You skipped over the "naturalized" part.


Try it like this:

"A person born out of the jurisdiction of the United States can only become a citizen by being naturalized, by authority of Congress, as in the enactments conferring citizenship upon foreign-born children of citizens..."

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@smrstrauss1 @p5151 @Dave B. @HistorianDude 

So Cruz is not eligible because he only had one US parent. BTW, Wong says anyone born in a foriegn country, even to two citizen parents, is naturalized.


" A person born out of the jurisdiction of the United States can only become a citizen by being naturalized, either by treaty, as in the case of the annexation of foreign territory, or by authority of Congress, exercised either by declaring certain classes of persons to be citizens, as in the enactments conferring citizenship upon foreign-born children of citizens,..." 

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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WKA says:

"A person born out of the jurisdiction of the United States can only become a citizen by being naturalized, either by treaty, as in the case of the annexation of foreign territory, or by authority of Congress, exercised either by declaring certain classes of persons to be citizens, as in the enactments conferring citizenship upon foreign-born children of citizens,..." 

So are you guys saying that people can be naturalized natural born Citizens?

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@smrstrauss1 @chillydogg1 

According to Wong they are alien nations but not foreign states. That means reservations are US territory so if Curtis was born on one it wouldn't matter.

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob 

Katyal and Clement write:

" All the sources routinely used to interpret the Constitution confirm that the phrase “natural born Citizen” has a specific meaning: namely, someone who was a U.S. citizen at birth with no need to go through a naturalization proceeding at some later time."

Yet Wong says :

" A person born out of the jurisdiction of the United States can only become a citizen by being naturalized, either by treaty, as in the case of the annexation of foreign territory, or by authority of Congress, exercised either by declaring certain classes of persons to be citizens, as in the enactments conferring citizenship upon foreign-born children of citizens,..." 

1 month, 1 week ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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"The Indian tribes, being within the territorial limits of the United States, were not, strictly speaking, foreign states;..."

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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If Elk says those born on US soil with allegiance to an alien nation are not citizens and Wong does not over rule it then transient children should not be granted citizenship therefore jus soli is not in effect therefore English common law is not in effect therefore Cruz and Obama are ineligible.

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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I wasn't aiming for Vattel. I'm seriously curious, if English common law says nothing about assigning citizenship to Indians what other body of law was used to detetmine Elk.

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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Have you ever heard the phrase "being on the same page"? I just wanted to make sure we agreed on that point before proceeding.. Sheesh.

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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You can't answer a simple yes or no question without being an ass. No one is forcing you to reply.

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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Huh? I said it wasn't English common law.

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 @HistorianDude 

Yes. According to Elk they are alien nations but not foreign countries correct?

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@HistorianDude @chillydogg1 

So what law was used to determine the status of Indians?

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@HistorianDude @chillydogg1 

I haven't read the entire thread. Humor me with the short answer.

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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Yes.Which doesn't answer my question of why Elk doesn't apply to transient children.

Born in the US with allegiance to an alien nation.

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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"The Indian tribes, being within the territorial limits of the United States, were not, strictly speaking, foreign states; but they were alien nations, distinct political communities, with whom the United States might and habitually did deal, as they thought fit, either through treaties made by the president and senate, or through acts of congress in the ordinary forms of legislation. "

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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I meant children born in the US to non resident Mexican parents. Doesn't that child owe allegiance to Mexico like Elk owed to his tribe?

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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So every nation was treated the same except the Indian ones. Sounds pretty sketchy.

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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How is a sovereign Indian nation different from any other soveriegn nation, like Mexico?

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@ballantine @chillydogg1 @HistorianDude 

Wiki says "Although “Indian tribes, being within the territorial limits of the United States, were not, strictly speaking, foreign states,” “they were alien nations, distinct political communities,” with whom the United States dealt with through treaties and acts of Congress.[3] Thus, born a member of an Indian tribe, even on American soil, Elk could not meet the allegiance test of the jurisdictional phrase because he “owed immediate allegiance to” his tribe, a vassal or quasi-nation, and not to the United States. The Court held Elk was not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States at birth. “The evident meaning of these last words is, not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction, and owing them direct and immediate allegiance.”[4


How does that not apply also to transient alien children?

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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@bob @chillydogg1 @HistorianDude 

So any Indian born off the reservation were granted citizenship?

1 month, 2 weeks ago on Ted Cruz and Natural Born Citizenship: A Belated Reply to Mario Apuzzo

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