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@onetenther @Patrick Henry Lives Do you know any socialists personally?
2 years, 5 months ago on Free at Last! Martin Luther King and Nullification
@onetenther So? This doesn't give them any Constitutional rights.
@Patrick Henry Lives Yes, we are free in the sense we can as Spartacus; this is Hobbes and Locke's doctrine of "natural rights in the state of nature" which the Founders knew of. We always have the right to resist authority as Christ did when he refused to cooperate with Pilate and make a pro-forma statement that "Hadrian is a God".Unfortunately, a Sovereign can always disobey the Constitution and stick it to us, whether in retaliation or because the Sovereign feels like it.But Tenthers want more: they want the rights of Nullification and Secesh to be affirmed as a law, and this is bullshit because no law can say "if you don't like this law do not obey it".They grew up with white privilege and feel unmanned by a new world and want reaffirmation by means of Nullification.Yes you have the right at all times to rebel whether nonviolently like Christ or violently as did the Founders. But "to live outside the law you must be honest" (Dylan). Insofar as you're Secesh, you Nullify, you resist you must accept as a matter of fact as did King that the Sovereign will nail your ass in retaliation.The problem with Tea Bags and Nullifiers is that as lower middle class authoritarians they basically, unlike Occupy, have too much respect for Authority to fight the power and INSTEAD they have a nasty tendency to kick people down the black and the brown. Which is why using Dr King is nauseating. Big man OPPOSED Nullification which was used by RACISTS.
@Patrick Henry Lives The United States Constitution is an almost mathematical demonstration by the "liberal elite" of 1789, amended by the "liberal elite" of 1865 that we can get along no matter what our religion or color. It is as such a magnificent document. Don't mess with it. Reread the Second Amendment.
@Patrick Henry Lives "My kingdom is not of this world". If man is fallen, revolution will have bad effects in the form of new oppression as in the case of BOTH Communism, and Franco, who wanted to "return" Spain to a Catholic country and ended up slaughtering the workers.
As the former Polish Marxist Leszek Kolakowski knew, the ideals of socialism are always destroyed by violent revolution and the expropriation of the capitalists for that produces Terror when the expropriated capitalists take up arms.
The situation is the SAME when Christians rebel against the secular authority in the name of Christianity and Christ knew this.
@ht_cce This, as the Bastard says in Shakespeare's King Lear, the excellent foppery of the world.
Teabags and hags are Sixties children who followed the yellow brick road and now there ain't no more sugar tit and they is hopping mad. They now blame everybody, such as "liberals" but themselves.
@ht_cce Don't worry pard, they just use Dr King to get Useful Idiots and Fellow Travelers to what's basically a RACIST movement.
A RACIST movement whose leaders lie about what's in the Constitution to fools who no longer have the university level reading comprehension to understand the Constitution, and who when they say "buht h'it h'ain't inn thuh Konstitooshun" speak a sort of truth or they lack the ability to find "h'it".
@Patrick Henry Lives Your problem is that I'm not a Christian yet have your rights under the First Amendment to practice my religion which is no religion at all. You have to stay out of public schools with your silly Creationism according to the Constitution. And if you destroy my Constitution I will fight you. The United States is not a Christian country it is a multi confessional Constitutional Republic of which the historical Jesus would approve. In the words of Abraham Lincoln, who didn't mention God in the Gettysburg Address, it must not perish from the earth.If you turn it into a Vandal republic of warriors who use their Christianity to oppress women and blacks, Houston, you have a problem because I support the Second Amendment.
@Patrick Henry Lives Actually, in the time of the early Christians, Christians did submit to such treatment and worse because they took Christ's admonition literally to "turn the other cheek". Christ had told them that even if they were slaves and sex toys they had souls and this was revolutionary. He knew that in the context of the times and what had happened to Spartacus, resistance would be suicide.Whereas we have no direct Biblical guidance on what to do today other than to know your ass from a hole in the ground so you don't get people killed or set up a murdering theocracy.
@onetenther "You talk like a fag and you're shit's all fucked up" - Idiocracy
@onetenther That's the problem. You no longer understand your own Constitution.
Christianity never counseled nor supported rebellion until Luther. But Luther, once he had princely sponsorship, turned against the peasants and their rebellion in the 1540s.Between Luther and the 18th century rebellion was ONLY sanctioned on a religious basis, and the rebel, once victorious as was Calvin in Geneva, suppressed further rebellion. The Puritans who founded the Massachusetts Bay colony were rebels in England but witch-burning tyrants in Massachusetts.Religion per se rebels and then in turn tyrannizes. Whereas the irreligious, but profoundly spiritual, Enlightenment (which fathered Pietism, Quakerdom, the Lubavatcher and other more tightly bound and peaceful communities amongst the workers and middle class, and agnosticism and Deism amongst the elite) avoided Luther's tragic dialectic and culminated in the Constitution of the United States of America.There is no final revelation. Religions like to say there is which shores up the temporal power of their leaders. But in fact, rather than "return" to the Consttution we need to continue to adapt it to the modern world.
@onetenther There is indeed "something" in the Constitution forbidding states from controlling entry. It's called the Fourteenth Amendment and guess what, pal, it applies to a so-called "illegal immigrant" as soon as he enters the United States, since "equal protection of the laws" applies in the wording of the Fourteenth to all PERSONS "in" the United States. The Federal Reserve IS covered by full faith and credit and Federal supremacy. Money mad LOSERS cannot change this.
2 years, 5 months ago on Utah Expands Legal Tender in the State
Riddle me this, riddle me thatThe problem, sir, is merely thatTruth is a riddle if it has been diddledBy swine who seek to mislead you
@onetenther Nor can the states exclude Federal Reserve notes unless ALL states without exception do so at one time, for this would violate IV/I: "Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State.".
@onetenther No, read the Constitution, Article I Section 10 (Powers Prohibited of States): "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts".
This logically simplifies to: "No State shall...make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts".
This does not REQUIRE the states to mandate legal tender, it instead RESTRICTS the tender power to specie coin. Since the section is entitled "Powers Prohibited to States" and not "what the states must do", the state in I/10 does not have to make specie legal tender but it may do so.
The section is entitled Powers Prohibited. These are all exceptions to the Tenth. States may not conduct foreign policy (which is why Arizona's new immigration laws are unconstitutional, grant letters of Marque and Reprisal, and they may NOT NOT NOT "coin" money where the usage of "coin" as a verb means "create fiat money".
However the states may, but do not have to, require creditors to accept gold and silver. This is a dead letter today since most creditors are engaged in interstate commerce and, if they don't want some clowns paying with gold, can simply locate the payment center in a different state.
Nothing wrong with buying specie. I just hope that I don't give my Maple Leaf to a beggar by mistake. But you still need to explain to me why you support what appear to be either silly or unconstitutional state laws. The relationship of the states to money was defined a long time ago in he original Constitution. They can't Coin it nor can they create fiat money other than make gold and silver legal tender. It's unlikely, however, that they will be able to force large, interstate merchants like Walmart to accept Eagles; those merchants (e.g., nearly all merchants) will simply declare that they are outside state jurisdiction, so to get petrol and guns from Walmart in a situation of social breakdown, you're going to have to do one of two things depending on how Silver Saver holds your specie:
1. If you have silver bars, your new best friend will be the guy who wants a silver bar and is willing not to cheat you.
2. If you have certificates of deposit you hope to hell that the Internet is up, you have access, the ATM is up, it accepts the SS ATM card and that the dollars it spits out are still accepted.
2 years, 5 months ago on Missouri House votes for Gold and Silver Tender
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Mr Tjaden."I claim it [specie] has been money throughout history, a point you many not agree with."
It's not a question of agreement, it's a question of truth. The fact is that gold and silver haven't always been money, as in my example of Europeans, for whom gold and silver were stores of value at the end of the Middle Ages, versus the indigenous civilizations (Maya, Aztec, Olmec) of Central and South America.
"However it has acted as a store of value when paper systems fail."
The problem is that it's a leaky store of value when paper systems fail, for it creates "contracts of force" where the merchant devalues the gold (for example) of the refugee from Nazi Germany to Shanghai in order to resell that gold at a bourse where the refugee is not permitted to trade.
You may say this is "evil government". The problem is that government is the precondition for a stable market in retail specie, and it has always tended to require that people who deal in gold and silver through official channels, where they can get the going rate rather than a discounted rate, be residents of the community in order to avoid speculation. In this, government is performing its Lockean minimum of functions in regulating and thus enabling private contracts.
"Looking at our present situation and deciding to buy some 'insurance' against the potential failure of the present system is prudent I believe. Proverbs 22:3 says 'A prudent man foresees danger and takes refuge, while the simple pass on and are punished.'".
Such insurance is already available, and it's called "insurance". It's globalized and therefore safer than a contract with a firm like Silver Saver.
Matthew 6:19: "Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth: where the rust, and moth consume, and where thieves break through and steal."
"I do not, nor does SilverSaver, advocate putting all of your money into gold and silver. It used to be that these metals were 5 to 10% of nearly every portfolio - before the present greed and arrogance led those in charge to believe they could control themselves in a purely fiat system."
In fact, the Federal Reserve has been irresponsible, but not in the way you believe. It's been avoiding moderate inflation of the sort that's benign for the debtor and working man (that is, most of us) and this has prolonged the current Depression. Instead, it irresponsibly has injected the system repeatedly (in 1983, 1987, 1994, and 2002) with financial feel good "steroids" in the form of cheap money.It's been manipulating the currency this way because the wealthy in our society refuse to pay their fair share of taxes and the result is that now, lowering the discount rate to zero is "pushing on a string".
"The reason I advocate sound money with such passion is that I believe the suffering you speak of can be mitigated if at least a foundation is in place should the worst happen. If the worst does not happen, then we have a choice in currency which will keep the Fed from getting to the brink of failure in the future, and allowing the US Treasury to use debt to regulate and legislate us into slavery."
You cannot have an alternative currency without amending, or tearing up, the Constitution, which gives exclusively to Congress, in Article I, the right to Coin money (create it by fiat as all currency is created) as an enumerated and exclusive right. Merchants can and will refuse payment in silver and gold. They ACCEPTED it when the trade of goldsmith existed, when entry into it was controlled by guilds, and they could be reasonably sure that specie payments could be verified. Today, too many things glister that are not gold.
A society in which you cannot predict what the merchant will accept is one without enforcement of legal tender and this society will not thrive on specie. Most people will revert to bartering their skills and remaining goods. And when they run out of goods, and the people with goods force them to accept labor-barter contracts which merely reproduce the lives of the laborers, this will be effectively a slave system.
"I concede the point that gold and silver will be volatile as measured in dollars. I believe that is a sign of 1) a dying fiat currency, 2) people's fear/hope that the current system can be saved, and 3) their uncertainty of what to do about it."Well, I have no problem with a couple of Krugerrands although I prefer Canadian Maple Leafs.
"I also believe that the best time anyone can spend is building relationships with those in their community. We don't have enough of that going on regardless of what happens economically, and if things do get challenging, those relationships will be more valuable than all the gold and silver in the world."
Extending credit on a micro basis to customers and suppliers is a better way to get to know your customers and suppliers and their reliability, whereas holding specie fails to create relationships. And if you discover that the merchant won't take Maple Leafs there goes the relationship.
Like it or not, the value of the dollar is set by forces beyond the Fed's control. It's set on a world perception that the United States is a stable, Federal and Constitutional democracy, therefore its contracts will be stable including the dollar bill as a contract. Whereas people won't buy sovereign China debt because the Chinese constitution has an overriding Leninist clause, to the effect that the Communist party represents the will of the proletariat and may for this reason do ANYTHING, include walk away from debts as did the Bolsheviks in 1920.
And note that Tea Party and right-libertarian politics are fraying this perception as in the case of the budget standoff last August.
"SilverSaver customers have the choice of taking delivery or leaving the metal stored in the depository. We believe in giving people a choice. There is no "one-size-fits-all" consensus of what the future holds. People can act based upon their convictions of what they see coming."
Christ points out in the old law may have been prudence but we really don't have that much control over our lives, and should replace prudence in some measure with loving one another. Sure, ten percent in gold and silver sounds like a good number. But most people in the USA just cannot save. We're not teaching our kids how to create machine tools or start a small business, we're teaching them computers which in my experience will always deskill the computer specialist.
Tim Campbell cites Romans 13 to justify, not submission to authority, but rebellion, which is pretty strange:Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.The authorities that exist have been established by God.2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Paul is saying, at the time of Rome, that all authority, including the unjust authority of Rome which in his time crucified Christians, is God's will. He is NOT calling upon his followers to rise up against Rome. This is what the Zealots did in 70 AD and they got their ass kicked. Whereas St Paul wanted the Christian community to survive and carry the Good News. There was simply no conception, at the time of Epistle to the Romans, that people had any sort of God-given right to defy authority. Spartacus had tried it under the Gracchi and failed. The Athenian experiment in "democracy" strictly for wealthy slave-owners had failed and Socrates had willingly acknowledged the final authority of Athens in Crito, the dialogue in which he refuses to leave Athens and seek shelter elsewhere, since he believed that Athens gave him life and could take it away. Paul is NOT saying that there are two types of authority, one just and the other unjust. He is saying that the most unjust is simply God's will, probably a Tribulation in punishment for the Christian's sins.
Gee, the little lady gets in the way?
O Liberty Boy, just blow her away.
Let slip the Ravening Dog
Who shall lope through Night and Fog:
Let SELF INTEREST reign, for we would fain
Forget ADAM'S fall, and the human stain.
We are men without shadows, become angelic
What we want is always meet and right:
And when in the end we look in God's Mirror and it makes us sick
We will say forgive us we knew Jackshit because all was Night.
We don't say much but we say it loud
O honey come see the boiling cloud.
@Alex Hamilton @onetenther
A Daniel, a Daniel come to judgement,
Hamilton says it like it is
Blasting a hole in wicked nullificationment
Honoring his namesake HAMILTON. Cannons shall roar, and Toasts shall FizzFor a Patriot has spoken boldly and with TruthIn words so clear they constitute their own Proof
@onetenther FALSE.Article I, Section 10: "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
The states are hereby forbidden to do something, not to "make gold or silver the legal tender of that state". The states CANNOT make ANYTHING except specie (gold or silver) legal tender, but they do not have to. This recognized the money scarcity of 1789 when farmers used their grain to make non-perishable whiskey that was then a form of money. Near the seacoasts, various gold coins from other nations were informally accepted and the Constitution wanted the states in this one case to protect contracts by forcing creditors to settle for these old "pieces of eight."Cf Gordon Wood, "Empire of Liberty", a history of the United States between 1789 and 1815. Don't watch crap on You Tube.
Beyond that creditors have always been able to accept other forms of payment such as a crate of booze, as they have been free to forgive debts.
In the above, states may NOT coin money but the Federal government can: Article I section 8. The clear meaning of "coin money" consists of two things. The Federal Government can make physical objects and call them money. But implicit here is the power to make it legal tender and to force a creditor to accept the "coin" as legal tender.
Now, there MIGHT be a problem. Perhaps the privilege to Coin does NOT mean the privilege to Print. Well, note that the Constitution uses "coin" not as a noun here but as a verb, and prior to the introduction of paper money, coin was metallic.
However, all sovereigns had the power to use what metal they whist: our pennies as kids in the 1950s were copper, and the poor have always relied far more on base metals than on silver or gold. Therefore, the use of the verb MEANS "create money by fiat".
It is a barbaric superstition to say that this sovereign right is restricted to gold and silver. The Indian tribes encountered by Cortez had a Sovereign who'd not made this fiat, therefore for them, gold was use value and not exchange value and suitable only for ornament. Whereas Cortez' government and the other sovereigns of Europe had said that gold was valuable. NOT their ordinary people: for them, shelter and food as the products of their labor had value.It was the custom in Europe for isolated homes to succor the stranger in the Dark Ages owing to the influence of Christianity, and the value of the Stranger (still extant in Oceania in the 19th century) as a source of labor and news from afar. Gradually these proto inn-keepers accepted gold from the thankful stranger and so by 1492 gold was considered "naturally" valuable by European men.Whereas in South America it was the custom to befriend the stranger save in areas of scarcity without expectation of reward and an economy based on specie was unknown as was the wheel. The claims of the merchants of overpriced gold bars are without merit: there is nothing god given about the value of gold.
Read the Constitution. I believe that because unprincipled politicians have used public education as a cash cow, raiding it when they want to give favors to their thug pals in the form of unneeded airports and the like, the typical Tenther (a man often, often in his fifties in the processed of being downsized, in an America where a man's fifties have become a dangerous decade because of the low regard and contempt in which he's held) simply hasn't the reading comprehension.
So when he says "it's not in the Constitution" he's being honest, for to him, the condign complexity of the Constitution is incomprehensible and a grayish paste or blur, and he cannot find what to him are increasing demands on him to shape up and cowboy out, therefore he reasons that Obama=Hitler, and shit.
Can you frigging pass an online TEST on the Constitution with a score in the 90s? I can, most of the time, and when I don't I don't blame the liberal establishment!
@DougTjaden Mr Tjaden, I apologize for my tone. I will here try to explain why I feel your business has a dark side.
I have read the materials on Silver Saver. My basic issue with them is that your investors have to look forward with a great deal of Schadenfreude (joy in others' unhappiness) towards social breakdown, for this is probably the only way their portfolios will appreciate.
And in that social breakdown, they may not be able to contact you or sell their holdings at the reference price. They may not be able to "sell" their holdings at all, for, as I've said, in your scenario, cash has no value.
The question then would become whether or not they could barter their specie, or certificates of specie deposit, in their local community for goods and services. In a barter economy, real value would be, I think, real stocks of food, petrol, and above all LABOR POWER...the skills and willingness to help others.
The women of Berlin cleaned up the mess in 1945. In an earthquake you don't want silver, you want a good man with petrol and the Jaws of Life. You want doctors and nurses. After the initial crisis, you even want teachers, those creatures so despised by conservatives, to continue your children's education, and give them something to do now that there's no TV.
You don't want shrewd investors without practical skills.
Absent some sort of government, gold and silver are worthless save as ornament. Tinned food and petrol are more valuable but they run out. The ultimate source of value is LABOR.
Which is why labor is wasted when it is expended on most investment schemes. I've developed investment software, and I've developed software for monitoring the hydrostatic stability of oceangoing research vessels which are helping to clean up the environment. I believe it's my duty to do the latter.
This is nonsense. King was ready to accept the consequences of civil disobedience whereas in 1832, South Carolina expected not to pay taxes and get away with it.That is: there is a difference between some slob who fails to pay child support and then, after the fact, claims that he has a moral right to do so, and who evades the consequences of his actions, and a civil rights demonstrator who sits at a lunch counter and takes the consequences like a man, hoping indeed that the harshness of retaliation will be a witness to his cause. "The rule of law" means in a significant part that we conduct legal affairs in a condign (with dignity) fashion, making decisions at the right place, at the right time, and in the right venue. Otherwise anarchy would result and the war of all against all, for men cannot be expected to magically agree on things and to refrain from deciding that their way is blessed by God (read the Federalist on this). Whereas it is true that absent government we have "natural rights" as seen in Hobbes and Locke. These include the absolute natural right of rebellion whether wholesale as in 1776 or retail in the case of the criminal. We can as a brute matter of fact do as we like, whether or not we decide it's a moral duty to do so, or, we just want to.But this is a state of nature, and in a state of nature, any man has the exact same right to stop us. The Birmingham sheriff had the legal right in addition to the natural right to arrest Dr King, and King knew it. But King's purpose was simply to get the codified law changed and enforced, not through passive Nullification but through an activist Supreme Court based on Marbury v Madison which gives the Supreme Court the sole and unappealable right to say what the Constitution means as a matter of legal force.
Most of these silly new laws are smoke and mirrors, for all they do is confirm rights we already have when they are drafted to avoid violating Article I Section 8 of the Constitution, which enumerates the logically exclusive power To Coin Money as a Congressional (which is to say, Federal) power. Or, they invite Constitutional challenge.
This is because they are a scam on the part of specie dealers to restart the growth in silver and gold prices which stopped around 2008. Tjaden's involvement makes this clear.
@DougTjaden It's ad hominem, Dougie boy, but your Malapropism is most amusing, since a hominid is a subhuman proto-human.
I KNOW that metals traders are LYING when they use the rate of specie appreciation from the historic lows of the 1980s to get fools to buy at 1700 an ounce. The rise in price was driven by non-repeatable historical events. Today, about the only safe investment are Federal Reserve notes because the Euro is in the toilet and China's Leninist system makes its sovereign debt and its RMB unattractive.
I also know from direct observation of what you post that you are advancing a political theory to create business, and I've been in business. I made money by creating value, from compilers in Silicon Valley to computer books to compassionate assistance to John Nash. When I was in sales I sold things of genuine value that met genuine human and business needs. I didn't go around lying to stupid people, telling them that the most popular world currency is debased.
THIS IS A BALD-FACED LIE since Federal Reserve notes, unlike the Pound in 1925, are uninfluenced by US debt; the pound's value was dependent on war debts from Britain to the United States. We owe most of the deficit to ourselves and as to Chinese debt it is simply not in China's interest to stop loans since this would cause a revolution in that country when its factories stop.
Hayek and von Mises advocated sound money because like Keynes they saw that unsoundness in the form of changing the rules generated economic activity and profits for insiders and shills such as Silver Saver. But this was not important in Austrian economics. Their theme was to get the central government out of the economy EXCEPT as creating the laws of legal tender. The very concept that this is evil "fiat" is not found in Austrian economics. They applauded the German government's 1920s measure to revalue the Reichsmark despite the fact that it impoverished the middle class because the substantive story then was reparations, not currency.
Congress, and Congress alone, has the ENUMERATED power to coin money and these silly, stupid new laws will be struck down, or are found upon close reading to do nothing new: they are smoke and mirrors.
Sound money is fiat money. You want to get laughed at? You want to get arrested? Take your Krugerrands to Walmart. The minimum wage checker has NO WAY of telling whether the Krugerrand is gold or fool's gold, and NO WAY of detecting clipping and adulteration.
It has long been a tenet of CONSERVATIVE theory that minimal government should be strong albeit minimal. It should run a strong national defense and dictate legal tender as part of its duty, in conservatism, to enforce contracts. That is why Article I of the United States Constitution ENUMERATES, in a way not superseded by the Tenth amendment, the power to coin money, which is the power to tell a private employer to pay his employee in US dollars, not scrip, and the power to tell a company to pay its suppliers in dollars.
But Tea Baggery is a real sick twist for now it's attacking this conservative core. Ron Paul is irresponsibly calling for a unilateral military stand down unaccompanied by any peace conferences or any new treaties. And these idiot state laws weaken the state's power to enforce private contracts.
Employees WILL BE UNPAID. Suppliers will stop delivery if you start giving them Silver Saver Monopoly Money.
@DougTjaden @Namlliht I think your operations should be investigated by the SEC. You're selling people a bill of goods in order to conduct a business outside of Federal regulation when we know that from the 1930s to 1999, banks were safe owing to Federal regulation and a strong Federal reserve that avoided bank runs...a phenomenon which people ignore simply because they haven't experienced it, and they haven't experienced it because we have a central bank.Like Samuel Insull in the 1930s, who impoverished thousands by lying to them, and flattering them, and telling them to take their money out of safe and REGULATED forms and give it to him, you use right-wing, lower middle class, pseudo-Christian trailer trash politics to "light fools to dusty death".People, observe a simple Web phenomenon. Right wing pages TAKE LONGER TO LOAD than public interest and left wing pages. Why? Because right wing bullshit is so heavily funded by private schemes and advertising for financial BS that the page has too many ads, each of which appeals to narcissism and greed.
@DougTjaden @Namlliht Then YOU ARE A BANK, but unlike a "real" bank, your savers have no deposit insurance. If your employees commit fraud and the debit card stops working, your customers have no recourse.
This foolishness about specie, which is being used by unethical businessmen to sell gold and silver at their peaks, isn't any part of Christianity. Mediaeval Christians followed Christ's admonition in the Sermon on the Mount to avoid piling up specie. After Luther, hard work, not the miserly and economically disastrous accumulation of specie, was praised such that the workingman would iNVEST, not hoard his savings and become a productive member of society, clearing wilderness and creating jobs...not selling fools and their wives a bill of SilverSaver goods.
Suppose gold goes past 2K or 3K per ounce. In this scenario, there would be mass social breakdown as a result of, or cause of, it makes no difference, a breakdown in paper money, with the US dollar no longer a reference currency.
Now, first of all, in this world, it's not as if you will be able to REDEEM your Canadian Maple leaf or silver bar for cash. Cash has disappeared, remember? And if you take the thing itself to the only open WalMart or gas station, what goods will they give you for a given amount of specie?
They may, or they may not, look up the London spot price. Is the Internet down? And why should we trust London?
In fact the WORTH of your specie is ITSELF determined by bargaining in a situation where YOU will get screwed if you need bread and milk and gas, and the owner of the store is more well off, with emergency supplies.Here in Hong Kong, the only way of getting the reference price for a Canadian Maple Leaf is to keep it in its original plastic casing and take it to a bank, for the traders in Sheung Wan START by offering 25 cents on the dollar and won't offer more than fifty. In any system of social breakdown, the traveler with gold is NOT a fortunate individual. He LOSES his specie paying inflated prices. This was the experience, in fact, of wealthy Jews fleeing Nazi Germany for Shanghai, by the time they got to Shanghai they had been beggared by inflated prices for transportation.This is why most emergency currencies have not, historically, been specie-based. They have been commodities that have a use value as well as an exchange value. On the frontier of early America, gold coins were a rarity especially away from seaports, and grain could not be shipped to distant markets prior to the construction of canals, so many farmers distilled the grain into whiskey which became currency. Likewise Camel cigarettes were currency in occupied Germany.Gold doesn't protect your purchasing power in the slightest since all that matters is what you get for it. And if you foolishly accept virtual "paper money" in the form of scrip from Silver Saver, certifying that a particular amount of specie is on deposit, that's just....paper money, not backed by the full faith and credit of the US but by the honesty and competence of its owners. In an emergency situation Silver Saver could be like any bank or bond trader, simply unable, physically unable, to honor its contract with the small holder.
@DougTjaden In fact, it is NOT a "well established historical fact" that "gold and silver protected the people's purchasing power". This is because a return to specie from so-called debased currencies (a move in the self interest of the rich holders of species, and, I might add, their paid shills like you, sir) has usually resulted in disaster:1. Winston Churchill as Chancellor of the Exchequer returned Britain to a gold standard in 1925 ignoring the fact that owing to the fact that Britain owed so much to Wall Street for WWI, its actual reference currency was the US dollar, which at this point was on a silver and not a gold standard (having been persuaded to do so by William Jennings Bryan and "silver bugs" who were regarded in the 1890s as debasers because they wanted a silver and not a gold standard, and believed that the workingman was being crucified on a cross of gold. Which he was, since i you have no specie and cannot get it, your "purchasing power" has just been destroyed, not "protected").Churchill's move caused deflation as prices sought lower levels, including wage deflation, and triggered the General Strike of 1927. 2. Andrew Jackson's foolish attempt to destroy the first Bank of the United States and return to specie triggered a world wide depression in 1839 for the same reason as above.3. From the 16th to the 18th century, Spain was relative to the rest of Europe rich in specie owing to its discovery of mountains practically made of silver in Potosi and vast gold reserves in the 16th century: but far from "protecting the purchasing power" of ordinary Spaniards or even its elite, this impoverished Spain because it started throwing its weight around and was foolishly involved in the Eighty Years war for Dutch independence between 1568 and 1848 and the Thirty Years European global war of 1618-1648. All of Spain and all of Europe were on a defacto gold-silver standard at this time, and this protected nobody.Meanwhile, the Chinese empire, whose people from the Song dynasty preferred paper money issued by banks and then the Q'ing dynasty, enjoyed hundreds of years of peace and prosperity for the ordinary person.
As to "corrupt people". You accept it as axiomatic that anyone in DC is "corrupt" insofar as they are female, black or Democratic, or consort with same because you, sir, are a sexist, a racist and a fool. Whereas the Founding Fathers would regard YOU as potentially corrupt for your business is the promotion of foolish purchase of specie when specie is at an all time high, and there's little likelihood that the specie investor will make money or even preserve wealth. Both gold and silver having risen are now stable because money has fled to US bonds for safety.They believed, "Pastor", in the fall of man despite the fact that some of them were not Christians in your sense. They believed, having read Plato as you have not that men will naturally differ among themselves, and these differences can be explained by that which is the benign motor of Adam Smith's economy, which Smith also saw not only as a force for good: self-interest. Read Federalist 15: James Madison was concerned that state legislatures be taken over by self-interest and faction.But like most Tea Baggers you exhibit spiritual pride and lack of self-knowledge in that you just assume that your heart is pure when your livelihood comes from convincing damned fools to buy silver at its peak.When a public servant who's female, black or Democratic acts far more genuinely for the General Welfare you automatically scream "government intervention" on cue because you want a world of men maddened, in CS Lewis' words, by false promises (including your false promises and that of SilverSaver) and soured by the true miseries of a depression and global warming.For shame.
Also, it is alarmingly innocent to believe that gold or silver are any more trustworthy than paper money. The real gold trader knows that greed causes people to play all sorts of stupid games with gold, such as adulteration and clipping. The typical emergency experience of the gold owner in a situation of currency breakdown is getting no more than fifty cents on the dollar for his gold from greedy bastards masquerading as Liberty Lovers. The Right is well-funded by the sort of men who delight in scams; this is often indicated by the slowness in which rightward Web pages (especially Pamela Geller's).I can ONLY get the going price for a Canadian Maple Leaf by taking the coin in its original plastic case to a proper bank that in a situation of political, or severe economic, crisis may very well close its doors. The market traders where I live in Hong Kong will START by offering 25 cents on the dollar and won't go above fifty cents on the dollar.HB 1637 is actually limited to making a recreational "legal tender" only out of gold and silver coins at face value issued in the past by the United States. But it contains this clause: "Gold and silver issued by the federal government is legal tender in this state. A person shall not compel any other person to tender or accept gold and silver coins that are issued by the federal government.
Gee, the Constitution? No exceptions? No excuses?You might try reading it.Art I/8 (powers of Congress): "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"Art VI: "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."The power to "coin" is an exclusive power. Therefore, even given the Tenth Amendment, I/8 removes from the states the power to "coin money" (say what money is). Therefore, the foolish legislation is at a minimum without meaning and perhaps treason.Furthermore, it takes place within the Jacksonian context in which "sound money" cannot be "fiat money": to Andrew Jackson and today, Ron Paul, money as specie (gold, silver and any other non-reactive metal agreed on by communities as tender) predates government itself. This is a fantasy, for absent government, there is no proper exchange, merely force and fraud and the occasional use of specie.