MalkAZoid
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This article never actually got to lift off because its validity depends entirely on proving that using bulldozers will not negatively impact the endangered species of the region. The article gives lip service to this requirement by stating their habitat has already been destroyed: one glib sentence that actually demonstrates nothing. Then its on to the angry anti-fed meme for the rest of the article.
Sorry but there is a reason the study of the environment involves science: it is a complex matter that we wisely entrust to people who devote their lives to it.
So whilst the author should not be admonished for not knowing why bulldozers may still be harmful to the spotted owl and other endangered species of the region, he should be called out for not asking the question, humbly. Just assuming the US Forest Service is behaving absurdly isn't good enough. And it is indicative of a highly irresponsible, and politically immature character to incite people to disregard the law based on such flimsy assumptions.
@Dan Linehan Dan - there are very simple answers to both your questions. If Zimmerman pulled his gun on Martin after Martin asked him why he was following him - Martin is in the situation of being faced with a total stranger, with nothing to identify him as trustworthy, who started following him at night, and who is now pointing a gun at him? In that instant it is completely plausible that Martin thought he was going to be shot. If that is the case, he's more likely to be shot if he tries to run than if he tries to overpower Zimmerman.
It may not be what you would have done in that situation, but it is far from being a batshit crazy judgement call. As so many people have pointed out, stalking someone at night without identifying yourself is a recipe for a very bad misunderstanding, and if Zimmerman pulled his gun in fear at being confronted, that recipe turns into one for disaster.
2. Like I said (but admittedly its very hard to follow the thread of conversation in these comments), if Zimmerman unholstered and Martin got on to him straight away, a battle for the weapon would have ensued which could last any amount of time. And the screaming could have lasted the entire time. I have no idea why you find that so strange. It actually fits what we know very well because otherwise it is very difficult to explain why Zimmerman was not far more messed up than he was.
We're told Martin broke his nose with the first punch, which send him sprawling on his butt. We're then told Martin slammed his head into concrete repeatedly with both hands. Apparently Martin did not suffer any injury apart from the final gunshot wound. That tells us it was a very uneven fight with Martin having Zimmerman pinned from almost the very outset. Do you really think that a full minute of Martin pounding at Zimmerman, and slamming the back of his head into the concrete with both hands, would result in just the initial broken nose and a flesh wound on the back of his head?
No. But if from the beginning they were struggling for Zimmerman's gun, the relative lack of injury to Zimmerman becomes much easier to understand as Martin would have had to devote most of his attention to trying to control the gun.
Its all rational, its all plausible. You're free to disagree of course, but to try to paint it as so incredible does all of us a disservice.
@MartyBohannon I have to go now Marty, but I'll just point out to you that you have misunderstood the meaning of 48%. It does not mean there is a 48% chance that it was him. It means that only 48 percent of the voice frequencies in the recording match the voice frequencies of Zimmerman's voice. That's not a match. There is a reason Owens said we should expect above 90 percent for it to be a match. Its not such a great idea to think you can second guess the interpretation of an expert over his own analysis. First ask yourself if you have misunderstood. If you had asked yourself, I think you are smart enough that you would have understood better the second time you read the article about the analysis.
@singingcowboy674 @MartyBohannon You are putting the right words in my mouth, Singing - thank you very much. I don't think it'll do any good though. Marty made up his mind from the first second that I had to be racist, and if he hasn't changed it by now, I doubt he will. I don't really care. Our civil exchange still exists. BTW, if you want to take it elsewhere, there is a really good BB where such discussions are easier to follow than here. Our comments seem to land a bit haphazardly here, don't you think?
If you want, come on over and start a thread here:
http://www.discussanything.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/15-In-The-News
I've got to out for a while now, but I'll join you there if you've posted. Hopefully the trolls won't follow, and if they do, maybe the more linear and clear format there will help them see this discussion can be intelligent, and civil.
@Andybinga @MartyBohannon No I know exactly how and when to apply Occam's razor - if you mean to apply it here, perhaps you should explain how you apply it to this situation, instead of just mentioning it as if the mere utterance should make you sound smart...
@Andybinga @MartyBohannon Andy - use your brain. Zimmerman claims he was the one screaming: we know this from his brother and his father. We know this because it is what he told the police, or so the press is claiming - and we have no reason to not believe them since his brother and father are touting the same story.
There is one absurd possibility, and that is that Zimmerman was also crying for help alongside Martin's cries for help... but hopefully your sense of the absurd is keen enough for you to not dwell too long on that possibility.
@Andybinga @MartyBohannon @singingcowboy674 The police likely never sought her testimony. We know for a fact that they had Martin's cell phone but did not even use it to let his next of kin know he had died. He was sent to the morgue as a John Doe.
The sound of a push does not sound like BS at all... you just don't want to give her story any credence, even though it fits the events better than Zimmerman's does.
@MartyBohannon Hey Marty - calm down. Boxing with boxing gloves on is not at all comparable to slamming the back of someone's skull against concrete. If you can't tell the difference, should I really be arguing with you?
And I said at least concussion, if not a fractured skull. You're not even dealing with what I'm saying.
@singingcowboy674 @MartyBohannon Thanks Singing - I appreciate that you're able to be so courteous, level-headed and even generous about this. You didn't have to go out of your way to represent me so truthfully, but you did, and I appreciate it!
@Andybinga @MartyBohannon @clarksvilletnusa I went to the link. It registered just fine in my brain. The decision of that judge is highly controversial. Almost everyone is stunned at it. Jeb Bush is surprised. The supervising police officer on the case is stunned. If you want to be objective, try on for size asking yourself whether maybe you too should be a little surprised, and maybe you should consider it an anomaly, if these people who are better informed than you do? Just a thought.
Yes, absolutely Zimmerman sounds frightened to me. Because he repeatedly says there is something very wrong with Martin, whereas we know he was simply talking to his girlfriend. Zimmerman thinks he's on drugs, that he's acting suspiciously - neither were true.
In that light, Zimmerman's entire outlook is fearful. Listen to the part where he says Martin has started moving towards him....
He clearly suspects Martin is armed. At this stage, being an untrained civilian, if he was not frightened believing he was dealing with an armed criminal coming towards him to 'check him out', then it proves better than anything could that he's an idiot. But that's what you believe. I believe he was frightened.
The voice analysis is FAR more reliable than you give it credit for. Read up on the credentials of Thomas Owens, and on the track record of the technique he employed. Ask yourself what a man with that sort of extremely well established career might have to gain by going out on any sort of limb with this case, if he was not absolutely sure of himself. He has far too much to loose and so little to gain. If he turns out wrong, the entire nation will remember him and his software as the ones that were certain Zimmerman didn't scream out, and were wrong about it. In a single blow, he would have made a lasting bad impression that undoes much of decades of serious work and well-earned respect.
So no, I do not automatically believe the news. I do however believe you have not given this as much thought as you might think you have.
@MartyBohannon @Andybinga Why is it most probable that Zimmerman is telling the truth? We already know with high probability that he is lying when he says the person screaming for help was him. We already know that he was angry and frustrated, and believed Martin was an armed criminal. Use what information we have and you should reach a very different conclusion than the simple: what Zimmerman says is the truth.
@MartyBohannon @singingcowboy674 Hey Marty, I'm not sure you have the math right concerning the time elapsed between the end of the 911 call, and the altercation.
Also, one can certainly get an impression of a push - not sure what her exact words were, but I seem to recall she mentions the sense that Martin's earpiece fell from his ear. If you hear a quick ruffle, the sound of someone taking a hurried step back or two at the same time - the mind would build the image of a push. Why does this seem strange to you?
My inclination is not that Zimmerman chased Martin down gun in hand. That would go against the facts we have at hand because apparently Martin spoke the first words in the exchange, demanding why he was being followed. Would he really have asked that if Zimmerman was already pointing a gun at him?
However it is clear that the altercation started almost immediately after this, and the most likely reason for it is that Zimmerman pulled his gun at that moment. It makes the most sense in terms of Zimmerman's probable state of mind - fear at being face to face with an aggravated young man he suspected to be an armed criminal, and it makes the most sense in terms of the exchange becoming physical so abruptly.
It is possible that Martin just started beating on Zimmerman, but is it really more likely that he did so for no reason, or that he did so because he suddenly felt seriously in danger?
Remember that the voice analysis tells us it is highly likely Martin was the one screaming for help.
Sorry but logic puts the events together in this order, not racism, or emotion. If you can explain why it is not the most likely course of events given all that we know, I'm all ears.
@singingcowboy674 @Andybinga @clarksvilletnusa Not necessarily. If Martin decided to reveal himself when Zimmerman was already nearby, then Zimmerman, may not have had time to pull his weapon while at that sort of distance.
As I mentioned, the best constructed lies are ones that hug the truth as closely as possible, and we know Zimmerman has had a chance to talk with his magistrate father, who seems to be his voice at this stage. Such a man, if he were to coach his son to lie just enough to protect himself, would advise him to lie in the smallest ways possible.
Zimmerman Jr claims Martin approached him from behind. This may be true, although not where Zimmerman claims it happened. By far the most likely place for it to have happened was right by where the struggle happened, unless we are to imagine they went for a walk together before starting to fight.
If Martin comes from behind asking belligerently why he is being followed, it makes perfect sense that Zimmerman might turn and pull his weapon. Remember, Zimmerman's story is that he reaches for his cell phone at precisely this moment. The most plausible lie he could construct that hugs the truth would be precisely that, if that were the moment he pulls his gun.
And then all the rest makes perfect sense - Martin reacts to the weapon by shouting out and lunging. Breaks Zimmerman's nose and descends upon him as quickly as possible to stay close to the gun.
If he had to try to control the gun with at least one hand, and probably both at times, it would explain why he was not able to do more damage to the back of Zimmerman's head hitting it against the concrete. A single two handed slam of Zimmerman's head against the concrete would have caused a concussion or fractured skull, but Zimmerman only has a flesh wound there.
I'm open to hearing scenarios that make more sense, but as far as I can see, this one integrates everything we have to go by better than any other series of events.
@MartyBohannon I'm not going to spare you much time because you have gone out of your way to distort the scenario that I favor, which is that Zimmerman - understandably frightened since he is not a law enforcement officer, has no training, and was faced with an upset young man who he believed to be armed and engaged in criminal conduct - pulled his weapon when Martin asked him why he was following him.
As for the screaming, there is now voice analysis backing up that it was not Zimmerman that was screaming. There's really nothing else to address in your self-satisfied post.
@singingcowboy674 @RobertLee1 I wonder whether the actual audio exists on a server somewhere. I'd imagine federal regulations would demand that caches of call audio be kept for a short amount of time, maybe 24 or 48 hours, in case they are needed for just such occasions or for questions of national security. But for the time being, I think all we have are the logs verifying that she was on the phone with Martin, and when the calls started and ended. The content of the call is coming from the her affidavit. She could be lying, about the content of the call, but I see how her account of the conversation clashes in any way with the facts we know, whereas Zimmerman's account of the events do.
@Andybinga @singingcowboy674 @RobertLee1 Its not speculation at all. Her call ended at 7.16pm. You're not helping this conversation much I'm afraid :(
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017887566_trayvonmartinfacts02.html
@Andybinga @RobertLee1 How do you know where Zimmerman was heading. All you have is his word - are you really just going to accept it without question? Apparently.... Why is that? Why is he so trustworthy, and why is Martin's every action suspicious? Hmmm?
There are several indicators that Zimmerman didn't heed the dispatchers advice. He ignored it once, then made excuses to not be pinned down to meeting the police at his truck or at the mailboxes.
Any objective person would at this stage consider that Zimmerman could have been anywhere, looking in any direction. The only place that makes no sense for Zimmerman to be is where he claims he was in his story to police: on his way back to his truck. Because the struggle took place 15 meters away from that path, and because he had told the dispatcher the police shouldn't meet him at his truck, nor at the mailboxes which are in the same direction as his truck.
@Andybinga @RobertLee1 I'm patient, but I'm beginning to think you're not all there. Are you just trying various stupid permutations out for size?
Again: any scenario in which Zimmerman made the first threatening move, be it a push, a missed punch, or drawing his weapon, makes Zimmerman the aggressor. Martin could then have responded with any number of successful attacks on Zimmerman, causing his wounds, that STILL makes Zimmerman the aggressor.
If logic is not your forte, why not leave it to others?
@singingcowboy674 @RobertLee1 Same here buddy! Can't keep up! Want to but can't :)
Yes, that could have happened. But I don't think we can reasonably expect Martin to have called 911. He was already on the phone with his worried girlfriend - an emotional lifeline, and one he probably wanted to keep if only to keep reassuring her he was ok - from her affidavit, it appears she was concerned.
And he was so close to his home... the fact that Zimmerman lost sight of him probably reassured him that if he sat tight a few minutes, the coast would be clear and he could head home with no further fuss. That's what I would have thought in his shoes, in any event and I don't think I'm particularly daft :)
In any event, Martin had no way of imagining that this stranger was actually a crazed neighborhood watch person and that calling 911 could potentially defuse that particular fluke of a mixup...