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This article never actually got to lift off because its validity depends entirely on proving that using bulldozers will not negatively impact the endangered species of the region.  The article gives lip service to this requirement by stating their habitat has already been destroyed: one glib sentence that actually demonstrates nothing.  Then its on to the angry anti-fed meme for the rest of the article.

 

Sorry but there is a reason the study of the environment involves science: it is a complex matter that we wisely entrust to people who devote their lives to it.

 

So whilst the author should not be admonished for not knowing why bulldozers may still be harmful to the spotted owl and other endangered species of the region, he should be called out for not asking the question, humbly.  Just assuming the US Forest Service is behaving absurdly isn't good enough.  And it is indicative of a highly irresponsible, and politically immature character to incite people to disregard the law based on such flimsy assumptions. 

 

 

2 years, 3 months ago on Tombstone, Water, and the Bureaucrat Standing In Between

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 @Dan Linehan Dan - there are very simple answers to both your questions.  If Zimmerman pulled his gun on Martin after Martin asked him why he was following him - Martin is in the situation of being faced with a total stranger, with nothing to identify him as trustworthy, who started following him at night, and who is now pointing a gun at him?  In that instant it is completely plausible that Martin thought he was going to be shot.  If that is the case, he's more likely to be shot if he tries to run than if he tries to overpower Zimmerman.

It may not be what you would have done in that situation, but it is far from being a batshit crazy judgement call.  As so many people have pointed out, stalking someone at night without identifying yourself is a recipe for a very bad misunderstanding, and if Zimmerman pulled his gun in fear at being confronted, that recipe turns into one for disaster.

 

2. Like I said (but admittedly its very hard to follow the thread of conversation in these comments), if Zimmerman unholstered and Martin got on to him straight away, a battle for the weapon would have ensued which could last any amount of time.  And the screaming could have lasted the entire time.  I have no idea why you find that so strange.  It actually fits what we know very well because otherwise it is very difficult to explain why Zimmerman was not far more messed up than he was. 

We're told Martin broke his nose with the first punch, which send him sprawling on his butt.  We're then told Martin slammed his head into concrete repeatedly with both hands.  Apparently Martin did not suffer any injury apart from the final gunshot wound.  That tells us it was a very uneven fight with Martin having Zimmerman pinned from almost the very outset.  Do you really think that a full minute of Martin pounding at Zimmerman, and slamming the back of his head into the concrete with both hands, would result in just the initial broken nose and a flesh wound on the back of his head?

No.  But if from the beginning they were struggling for Zimmerman's gun, the relative lack of injury to Zimmerman becomes much easier to understand as Martin would have had to devote most of his attention to trying to control the gun.

 

Its all rational, its all plausible.  You're free to disagree of course, but to try to paint it as so incredible does all of us a disservice.

 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @MartyBohannon I have to go now Marty, but I'll just point out to you that you have misunderstood the meaning of 48%.  It does not mean there is a 48% chance that it was him.  It means that only 48 percent of the voice frequencies in the recording match the voice frequencies of Zimmerman's voice.  That's not a match.  There is a reason Owens said we should expect above 90 percent for it to be a  match.  Its not such a great idea to think you can second guess the interpretation of an expert over his own analysis.  First ask yourself if you have misunderstood.  If you had asked yourself, I think you are smart enough that you would have understood better the second time you read the article about the analysis.

 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @singingcowboy674  @MartyBohannon You are putting the right words in my mouth, Singing - thank you very much.  I don't think it'll do any good though.  Marty made up his mind from the first second that I had to be racist, and if he hasn't changed it by now, I doubt he will.  I don't really care.  Our civil exchange still exists.  BTW, if you want to take it elsewhere, there is a really good BB where such discussions are easier to follow than here.  Our comments seem to land a bit haphazardly here, don't you think?

If you want, come on over and start a thread here:

http://www.discussanything.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/15-In-The-News

 

I've got to out for a while now, but I'll join you there if you've posted.  Hopefully the trolls won't follow, and if they do, maybe the more linear and clear format there will help them see this discussion can be intelligent, and civil.

 

 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @Andybinga  @MartyBohannon No I know exactly how and when to apply Occam's razor - if you mean to apply it here, perhaps you should explain how you apply it to this situation, instead of just mentioning it as if the mere utterance should make you sound smart...

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @Andybinga  @MartyBohannon Andy - use your brain.  Zimmerman claims he was the one screaming: we know this from his brother and his father. We know this because it is what he told the police, or so the press is claiming - and we have no reason to not believe them since his brother and father are touting the same story.

There is one absurd possibility, and that is that Zimmerman was also crying for help alongside Martin's cries for help... but hopefully your sense of the absurd is keen enough for you to not dwell too long on that possibility.

 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @Andybinga  @MartyBohannon  @singingcowboy674 The police likely never sought her testimony.  We know for a fact that they had Martin's cell phone but did not even use it to let his next of kin know he had died.  He was sent to the morgue as a John Doe.

The sound of a push does not sound like BS at all... you just don't want to give her story any credence, even though it fits the events better than Zimmerman's does.

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @MartyBohannon Hey Marty - calm down.  Boxing with boxing gloves on is not at all comparable to slamming the back of someone's skull against concrete.  If you can't tell the difference, should I really be arguing with you? 

And I said at least concussion, if not a fractured skull.  You're not even dealing with what I'm saying.

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @singingcowboy674  @MartyBohannon Thanks Singing - I appreciate that you're able to be so courteous, level-headed and even generous about this.  You didn't have to go out of your way to represent me so truthfully, but you did, and I appreciate it!

 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @Andybinga  @MartyBohannon  @clarksvilletnusa I went to the link.  It registered just fine in my brain.  The decision of that judge is highly controversial.  Almost everyone is stunned at it.  Jeb Bush is surprised.  The supervising police officer on the case is stunned.  If you want to be objective, try on for size asking yourself whether maybe you too should be a little surprised, and maybe you should consider it an anomaly, if these people who are better informed than you do?  Just a thought.

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @MartyBohannon 

Yes, absolutely Zimmerman sounds frightened to me.  Because he repeatedly says there is something very wrong with Martin, whereas we know he was simply talking to his girlfriend.  Zimmerman thinks he's on drugs, that he's acting suspiciously - neither were true. 

In that light, Zimmerman's entire outlook is fearful.  Listen to the part where he says Martin has started moving towards him....

He clearly suspects Martin is armed.  At this stage, being an untrained civilian, if he was not frightened believing he was dealing with an armed criminal coming towards him to 'check him out', then it proves better than anything could that he's an idiot.  But that's what you believe.  I believe he was frightened.

The voice analysis is FAR more reliable than you give it credit for.  Read up on the credentials of Thomas Owens, and on the track record of the technique he employed.  Ask yourself what a man with that sort of extremely well established career might have to gain by going out on any sort of limb with this case, if he was not absolutely sure of himself.  He has far too much to loose and so little to gain.  If he turns out wrong, the entire nation will remember him and his software as the ones that were certain Zimmerman didn't scream out, and were wrong about it.  In a single blow, he would have made a lasting bad impression that undoes much of decades of serious work and well-earned respect.

 

So no, I do not automatically believe the news.  I do however believe you have not given this as much thought as you might think you have.

 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @MartyBohannon  @Andybinga Why is it most probable that Zimmerman is telling the truth?  We already know with high probability that he is lying when he says the person screaming for help was him.  We already know that he was angry and frustrated, and believed Martin was an armed criminal.  Use what information we have and you should reach a very different conclusion than the simple: what Zimmerman says is the truth.

 

 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @MartyBohannon  @singingcowboy674 Hey Marty, I'm not sure you have the math right concerning the time elapsed between the end of the 911 call, and the altercation.

 

Also, one can certainly get an impression of a push - not sure what her exact words were, but I seem to recall she mentions the sense that Martin's earpiece fell from his ear.  If you hear a quick ruffle, the sound of someone taking a hurried step back or two at the same time - the mind would build the image of a push.  Why does this seem strange to you?

 

My inclination is not that Zimmerman chased Martin down gun in hand.  That would go against the facts we have at hand because apparently Martin spoke the first words in the exchange, demanding why he was being followed.  Would he really have asked that if Zimmerman was already pointing a gun at him?

However it is clear that the altercation started almost immediately after this, and the most likely reason for it is that Zimmerman pulled his gun at that moment.  It makes the most sense in terms of Zimmerman's probable state of mind - fear at being face to face with an aggravated young man he suspected to be an armed criminal, and it makes the most sense in terms of the exchange becoming physical so abruptly.

 

It is possible that Martin just started beating on Zimmerman, but is it really more likely that he did so for no reason, or that he did so because he suddenly felt seriously in danger?

 

Remember that the voice analysis tells us it is highly likely Martin was the one screaming for help.

 

Sorry but logic puts the events together in this order, not racism, or emotion.  If you can explain why it is not the most likely course of events given all that we know, I'm all ears.

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @singingcowboy674  @Andybinga  @clarksvilletnusa Not necessarily.  If Martin decided to reveal himself when Zimmerman was already nearby, then Zimmerman, may not have had time to pull his weapon while at that sort of distance.

As I mentioned, the best constructed lies are ones that hug the truth as closely as possible, and we know Zimmerman has had a chance to talk with his magistrate father, who seems to be his voice at this stage. Such a man, if he were to coach his son to lie just enough to protect himself, would advise him to lie in the smallest ways possible.

Zimmerman Jr claims Martin approached him from behind.  This may be true, although not where Zimmerman claims it happened.  By far the most likely place for it to have happened was right by where the struggle happened, unless we are to imagine they went for a walk together before starting to fight.

If Martin comes from behind asking belligerently why he is being followed, it makes perfect sense that Zimmerman might turn and pull his weapon.  Remember, Zimmerman's story is that he reaches for his cell phone at precisely this moment.  The most plausible lie he could construct that hugs the truth would be precisely that, if that were the moment he pulls his gun. 

And then all the rest makes perfect sense - Martin reacts to the weapon by shouting out and lunging.  Breaks Zimmerman's nose and descends upon him as quickly as possible to stay close to the gun.

If he had to try to control the gun with at least one hand, and probably both at times, it would explain why he was not able to do more damage to the back of Zimmerman's head hitting it against the concrete.  A single two handed slam of Zimmerman's head against the concrete would have caused a concussion or fractured skull, but Zimmerman only has a flesh wound there.

I'm open to hearing scenarios that make more sense, but as far as I can see, this one integrates everything we have to go by better than any other series of events.

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @MartyBohannon I'm not going to spare you much time because you have gone out of your way to distort the scenario that I favor, which is that Zimmerman - understandably frightened since he is not a law enforcement officer, has no training, and was faced with an upset young man who he believed to be armed and engaged in criminal conduct - pulled his weapon when Martin asked him why he was following him.

 

As for the screaming, there is now voice analysis backing up that it was not Zimmerman that was screaming.  There's really nothing else to address in your self-satisfied post.

 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @singingcowboy674  @RobertLee1 I wonder whether the actual audio exists on a server somewhere.  I'd imagine federal regulations would demand that caches of call audio be kept for a short amount of time, maybe 24 or 48 hours, in case they are needed for just such occasions or for questions of national security.  But for the time being, I think all we have are the logs verifying that she was on the phone with Martin, and when the calls started and ended.  The content of the call is coming from the her affidavit.  She could be lying, about the content of the call, but I see how her account of the conversation clashes in any way with the facts we know, whereas Zimmerman's account of the events do.

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @Andybinga  @singingcowboy674  @RobertLee1 Its not speculation at all.  Her call ended at 7.16pm.  You're not helping this conversation much I'm afraid :(

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017887566_trayvonmartinfacts02.html

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @Andybinga  @RobertLee1 How do you know where Zimmerman was heading.  All you have is his word - are you really just going to accept it without question?  Apparently....  Why is that?  Why is he so trustworthy, and why is Martin's every action suspicious?  Hmmm?

 

There are several indicators that Zimmerman didn't heed the dispatchers advice.  He ignored it once, then made excuses to not be pinned down to meeting the police at his truck or at the mailboxes.

 

Any objective person would at this stage consider that Zimmerman could have been anywhere, looking in any direction.  The only place that makes no sense for Zimmerman to be is where he claims he was in his story to police: on his way back to his truck.  Because the struggle took place 15 meters away from that path, and because he had told the dispatcher the police shouldn't meet him at his truck, nor at the mailboxes which are in the same direction as his truck.

 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @Andybinga  @RobertLee1 I'm patient, but I'm beginning to think you're not all there.  Are you just trying various stupid permutations out for size?

Again: any scenario in which Zimmerman made the first threatening move, be it a push, a missed punch, or drawing his weapon, makes Zimmerman the aggressor.  Martin could then have responded with any number of successful attacks on Zimmerman, causing his wounds, that STILL makes Zimmerman the aggressor.

If logic is not your forte, why not leave it to others?

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @singingcowboy674  @RobertLee1 Same here buddy!  Can't keep up!  Want to but can't :)

 

Yes, that could have happened.  But I don't think we can reasonably expect Martin to have called 911.  He was already on the phone with his worried girlfriend - an emotional lifeline, and one he probably wanted to keep if only to keep reassuring her he was ok - from her affidavit, it appears she was concerned.

 

And he was so close to his home... the fact that Zimmerman lost sight of him probably reassured him that if he sat tight a few minutes, the coast would be clear and he could head home with no further fuss.  That's what I would have thought in his shoes, in any event and I don't think I'm particularly daft :) 

 

In any event, Martin had no way of imagining that this stranger was actually a crazed neighborhood watch person and that calling 911 could potentially defuse that particular fluke of a mixup...

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @Andybinga  @clarksvilletnusa  @singingcowboy674 You're wondering what the hell he was doing near the mailboxes not because you think its the farthest point from a 7-11, but because you're quite obviously trying to look for reasons why Zimmerman's suspicions were justified.  I don't wonder at all why he was near the mailboxes.  Do you want to know why?  Because being there is not in any way indicative of criminal intent, not anymore than if you are I were hanging out near those mailboxes. 

 

As for the route Martin took, it is quite clear from the map that it was just as logical a route to take to get to the town house than any other.  And again - the man can walk home any which way he pleases while he talks to his girlfriend on the phone, and should not have to suffer the suspicion of others for it. 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @Andybinga  @clarksvilletnusa  @singingcowboy674 I just told you, it only means that he didn't manage to hit Martin.  The moment you make a physically threatening move, you are the physical aggressor.  That can be pushing (which leaves no bruises), throwing a punch but missing (leaves no bruises), or pulling your weapon without identifying your intent.  What part of that doesn't make sense please?

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @Andybinga  @clarksvilletnusa  @singingcowboy674 No - proof that Zimmerman never landed a punch.  Far from the same thing.  All Zimmerman had to do is pull his weapon for Martin to feel attacked, since he had no idea who this guy was.

 

I'm actually favoring the scenario where Zimmerman pulls his weapon just after Martin asks him why he's following him.  Zimmerman's story to the police was that when Martin asked him this, he reached for his cell phone.  Lies are usually based on truth - it makes the liar more able to keep track of his lies, and helps the lies feel grounded in the general flow of how things actually happened.  I think there is a high likelihood that Zimmerman actually reached for his gun at that point, and not his cellphone, thinking he had to have the gun trained on this young black suspect he thought was armed.

 

Then the rest of the altercation makes perfect sense.  Martin thinks 'holy crap' this guy is going to shoot me, starts screaming for help while trying to get the better of Zimmerman.  He gets shot, screams stop abruptly at the same time the gun fires. 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @singingcowboy674  @clarksvilletnusa  @RobertLee1 Well I can see how you would think that, Singing, but I'm not sure I agree.  Martin would not have known how soon Zimmerman might have reappeared to follow him down towards the town house.  And the anonymity of the town house afforded by perspective is perhaps a more complex judgement than what we should expect from a kid under pressure, and also on the phone with his girlfriend who, according to her affidavit, was afraid for him and telling him to run.  The girlfriend and the situation were probably more than enough to run interference with Martin's planning abilities.

The fact that it is a gated community doesn't hold much sway for me.  A stranger following you at night is scary no matter where it takes place, and I doubt the gates on the community made the occupants feel much safer.  But perhaps I am missing your point about the gated aspect?

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @singingcowboy674  @clarksvilletnusa  @JeffHenderson  @Chakam I'll go with harassment personally.  The litmus test is simple in my view.  If a stranger jumped out of his car to follow you at night time for now perceptible reason, would you feel harassed?  If you are like most people, you'd feel more than harassed, you feel fear.  Harassment is a notch lower than evoking fear in someone.

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @AriD2385  @JeffHenderson  @Chakam I agree with everything, except apparently the neighborhood wasn't all that great...  but that doesn't change the validity of everything else you said.  Its nice to find someone speaking so lucidly about the reactions folks have had to the case!

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @singingcowboy674  @Chakam  @JeffHenderson Loose knit plan I think - it certainly was not a registered neighborhood watch organization.

Your scenario is plausible...

I'd add that it is likely that Zimmerman pulled his gun earlier than just before he shot Martin though.  For one, the voice analysis and at least one witness say it was Martin shouting for help.  And the shouting starts well before the gun shot.

Zimmerman says there as a struggle for his weapon, and I'm sort of inclined to believe that much of his story.  I think he probably pulled his weapon early, Martin freaked out, started shouting for help while fighting Zimmerman to neutralize the weapon (if he ran, it was all too easy to be shot in the back)...

 

This scenario makes the most sense to me considering what we know so far.

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @clarksvilletnusa  @singingcowboy674 That's certainly a possible scenario.

Personally, it sounds to me like Zimmerman said 'fucking punks' on the 911 call... but everyone seems to hear something different.  Isn't that funny how that works?

But I'm one hundred percent with you on the likelihood of Zimmerman still actively looking for Martin after the call ended.  Why else would he have not wanted to meet the police at his truck or at the mail boxes, but rather have them call him to find out where he was?  The only rational explanation for it is that he planned to do something that made it impossible to predict where he would be when the cops arrived, and what else did he plan to do that was so important, other than to look for Martin?

 

Besides, Zimmerman claims he was heading back to his truck when the altercation happened!  If that were the case, then he could have made the rendez-vous with police at his truck or at the mailboxes.  It is pretty clear from his actions that he had no intention of heading back to his truck.

 

An aside - I want to see the police report because I don't understand how the police could believe he was heading back his truck when Martin allegedly came up behind him and started the altercation.  The struggle took place a full 15 meters away from that path.  So someone should have grilled Zimmerman on that and I want to know what Zimmerman had to say for himself...

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @RobertLee1 No, not calling 911 did not cost him his life unless you can demonstrate how 911 could have helped him.  Nobody could have arrived in time to change the outcome.  What would 911 have told him that would have changed the outcome?  They are not well coordinated enough to be able to link the dots that fast and tell him the guy who is following him is actually the neighborhood watch guy, unless he had the good fortune of getting the exact same operator that Zimmerman talked to.  What are the odds of that? 

 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @singingcowboy674  @RobertLee1 Zimmerman knew the police was on its way but I don't think your reasoning applies since Zimmerman did not necessarily intend to kill Martin.  He probably thought he would come out looking good if he could locate Martin again.

 

The other possibility is that when he saw Martin again, his anger and frustration, which were running high when he was on the 911 call, were stronger than any thought of how it might look if he approached the youth.  I mean the fact that he left the vehicle in the first place pretty much establishes that he didn't care how that looked.

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @RobertLee1 Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?  It is easy to judge from our armchairs, but if you put yourself in his shoes, it makes sense that he didn't go back to the town house.  If he saw that Zimmerman had lost his trail, it made sense for him to try and wait for Zimmerman to leave the area before he went to the town house, so as not to reveal where he was staying.  I mean that's pretty easy to understand right?  Would you want to lead a stranger that is following you at night straight to where you live?

 

Why are you putting the burden of making the right decision on the victim?  It makes more sense to place that burden on the the man who pulled the trigger, because he made at least one bad call that was recognizably bad even without the benefit of hindsight.  He chose to pursue Martin after being reminded that was not the best thing to do.  He chose to pursue Martin even though he was angry and frustrated and had decided Martin was guilty of something, and he was carrying a gun (another bad call for a neighborhood watch person).

 

We can go further back with Zimmerman to another bad call of his: he had been fired from a security job because of his tendency to snap and become excessively violent.  That could have been his wake up call to think: 'hey, maybe I'm not cut out for patrolling my neighborhood with a gun'.

 

We need to take a good hard look at ourselves when we judge these situations: the way we bias our approach says a lot about us, whether we know it or not.  Your desire to pin the bad decision on the victim says something about you.

 

M

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @RobertLee1 Martin was already on the phone with his girlfriend before he became aware of Zimmerman, by the sounds of it.

There is no reason to believe Martin went all the way back to his house, and a good reason to believe he did not: if you're being followed by a stranger at night, is it really the best course of action to lead him back to where you are going to spend the night?

We don't know if Martin went after Zimmerman, or if Zimmerman went after Martin.  But it is more likely that Zimmerman went after Martin since the last established state of mind of both parties was that Zimmerman had been looking for Martin, and Martin had been trying to get away from him.

 

We can't know anything for certain at this stage, but logic does tell us what is most likely.

 

M

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @TDub  @joyce0226 Actually the woman thinks the voice was Trayvon's, and to my knowledge, the boy did not pronounce himself on who he thought was screaming.  As for visuals, all witnesses are now saying it was too dark to be certain who was who and there are allegations of police having been a little forceful in efforts to get the testimony to match Zimmerman's story.  At best, the way they questioned the 13 year old was leading, as they provided a multiple choice of just three choices of clothing color.

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @Conway193 Well your reticence seems to show an attachment to exonerating Zimmerman.  Objectively, this expert analysis is a serious blow to Zimmerman's credibility.  The technique the biometrics analyst used is routinely used for expert testimony in court cases.  He has served as an expert witness in trials in 35 states.  And he used the technique successfully just last January in a case where the 911 call audio was of far lesser quality than the one in this case (his words).  I'm sorry but all you're showing is your own personally motivated desire to not give credence to the expert's conclusions, not any failing on his behalf or any weakness in the science he applied.

If the screams came from Martin, what does it really prove?  Are you really asking that question?  For one, it proves Zimmerman is lying since he claims he was the one screaming for help.  That doesn't seem significant to you.  You REALLY want Zimmerman to be innocent, don't you?  I wonder why...

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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 @fsdeosa Possible but unlikely.  The screaming went on for quite a while if you listen to the 911 tape, and was deeply anguished.  If it were Zimmerman screaming all that time, the act of shooting Martin would not have abruptly ended the state in which he had worked his way into.  The vocalizing would have continued at least a short while.  Besides, we now have voice analysis experts weighing in that the voice was not Zimmerman's.  Things are not looking good from him.  If he lied about being the one crying for help, things are DEFINITELY not looking good for him.

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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Hey -

 

I appreciate the effort you've gone to to build this timeline.  It has a few problems though.

 

1. You mention Zimmerman finally agrees to stop pursuit at the dispatcher's request.  In fact the dispatcher made that request only once during the 911 call, and Zimmerman ignored him.  Zimmerman never made the decision to break off pursuit - he simply lost sight of Martin and started indicating to the 911 operator that he could meet police by his truck.  But he eventually says that police can call him to find out where he is.  That's actually a very interesting fact, because its not going to be any easier to describe to the police by phone where his truck is located, than it is to describe it to the 911 dispatcher.  And interestingly enough, its not that difficult to describe where his truck was parked, even without an address.  The operator offers for the police to meet him by the mailboxes and that's when Zimmerman hesitates, and prefers for the police to call him to find out where he is.  By far the most likely reason for him to not try harder to tell them where his truck is parked, and to not agree to simply meet by the mail boxes, is that Zimmerman intended to continue looking for Martin.

 

2. You make a couple of assumptions about Martin.  The first is that he was running.  Zimmerman claims he was running, but he may simply have meant that Martin was trying to get away.  From Martin's girlfriend's affidavit, we get a different story which was that Martin said he would walk fast, while she was urging him to run.

 

3.  The most damaging assumption you make about Martin however is that he went all the way back to Brandy Green's town house before doubling back, in what you describe as an effort to confront Zimmerman.  But what makes you think he went back to the town house at all?  I don't see where we could get that information from, or even why it is likely.  Martin may equally as plausibly simply gone to the place where the shooting would eventually take place, and stayed there, trying to watch what Zimmerman was doing from hiding.  Its actually more plausible than him going back to the town house because if he felt he was being followed by a stranger, he probably would not want to lead them back to where he was staying.

 

At this point, your scenario crumbles because it is at least just as likely that Zimmerman spotted Martin and came towards him.  In the absence of any other information, this is actually more likely, since Martin had already decided to avoid Zimmerman, and Zimmerman had already shown he wanted to pursue him - your scenario demands that Martin change his mind for some reason, where as mine bases itself on the existing and established courses of action of the two parties, making yours the less likely of the two.

 

In any event, the spot where the struggle and shooting happened is a good 15 meters away from the path that would have lead Zimmerman back to his truck, where he CLAIMS he was heading.  I don't see why he would have deviated from that path, even if Martin had called out to him.  It is night time.  Zimmerman obviously suspects this guy is armed (from his comment about him having his hand in his waistband.. then something in his hands).  Zimmerman is not a police officer - not even part of a registered neighborhood watch.  He has nothing to gain from moving towards Martin given these circumstances, unless it was his aim to confront him.  In court, this will be important because he ultimately made the decision to engage Martin by moving towards him, a full 15 meters out of his way to his truck.

 

But if you follow the implications of the 911 call, in which Zimmerman deliberately maneuvers the end of the call so that he is not locked down to meeting the police at his truck or at the mailboxes - where would Zimmerman continue looking for Martin?  The only other direction Martin may have gone was down the path towards his town house.  And lo and behold, that's exactly where Zimmerman ends up having the struggle and shooting him.  As such it is most likely that Zimmerman walked down that way of his own volition, continuing to look for Martin.

 

I hope you receive these thoughts with an open mind.

 

Best,

M

 

 

 

 

2 years, 5 months ago on Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

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