Dushan Gosteljski
Serbia, 23000 Zrenjanin
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The title of this article, i think, is extremely suggestive. Why wouldn't you approach it the other way round "How to stabilize the Assad regime". I think it would be much easier to stop the war in Syria if no one provides the military equipments to the rebels. Of course, if the main goal of the West is to end an enormous human suffering...
What a funny guy this Dobbs is! I will never understand why anyone with a sound mind would have engaged him in any form of intellectual enterprise? His knowledge of historical facts and abilities to reason and analize logically are very deficient.
Mr. Dobbs, what is the USHMM paying you for?
What the German's (Hitler's) Drang nach Osten (Lebensraum theory) has to do with the Holocaust? Nothing at all... Drang nach Osten is related to the extermination of many millions of Slavs. The ferocious (outrageous) killing of the Jews was fueled by an (more or less) irrational hatred. Simply, Hitler believed that the Jews were the leaders of Communism who were conspiring to take over the world. On the other hand, Hitler also thought that the Jews were trying to destroy the Aryan race and enslave the whole world under Jewish rule. It meant that the two races were destined to conquer the planet: the Jews and the Aryans (Germans). Therefore, there were no places on Earth for both of them.
"Drive toward the East" and "living space" (searching for "productive agricultural land") are quite different things from the Holocaust, don't you understand?
And what is your point? Run out of ideas?
@East I asked you for evidences.
Tell me, who killed all these people.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/100119320/Serbs-victims-Srebrenica-1992-95#fullscreen
The fact is that the Serbs didn't kill woman and children in Srebrenica. On the other side, Naser Oric's thugs, rippers and manslayers committed despicable crimes against Serbian soldiers and civilians in and around Srebrenica, killing whatever has come to their hands. The Serbs used nothing but the rifles and bullets during executions while Muslim used knives, axes, and other cold weapon. The Muslims used the sick imagination to find the more heinous way of torturing people before finally they put them to death: burning, maimed the bodies, impaling people alive on long wooden stakes, beheading… They raped woman and they slaughtered them afterwards, with the psychopathic pleasure of watching them die slowly.
Naser Oric was the one who first ordered killing of all prisoners of war. Remember what he said to Philippe Morillon: One can't be bothered with prisoners!
And what are you looking for instead of reconciliation? You want the Serbs to be accused of the act of genocide they didn't commit. Even you are demanding that those lies should be recognized by law; and established as an undeniable truth; beyond a reasonable doubt!
You expect the world to believe such nonsense!?
Look at these videos underneath and tell me who was trying to commit genocide in Srebrenica region:
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v28856337eddMh3Jd
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v28584140ngcgcaE3
Not "instead" but "except Mr, Dobbs"; he is the one who comes uninvited into our house pretending to be a divine judge (divide et impera!) while fueling Bosnian cauldron with hatred again.
Typical thinking of the genocide architects: it is so easy, one thousand, two thousands, eight thousands, five millions… one thousand more or less – quite the same. Hey man, one thousand is one thousand and it can't be two thousands. Are you talking about people or about logs? Every human life is unique, don't you know it? Every human eye is a new universe. Is this how Mr. Dobbs and other genocide devisers are poisoning the mental and moral atmosphere among the uneducated and naive people on the Foreign Policy? Of course, their intention is to hook people on their rotten bait: the Serbs killed from 1.000 to 2.000! Who knows! They killed immeasurable thousands of their neighbours. They committed genocide! Who cares if it was 1.000 or 2.000?
Is it not the same?
And let us be more respectful towards any human being, especially those whose life was violently taken away from them. Killing one man is a terrible crime, not to talk about thousand(s). The fact is, thousands had been killed on both sides (Orthodox Serbs and Islamic Serbs; Catholic Serbs too) and wouldn't it be better for us all to try to bury the hatchet for the sake of our future and the future of our children? If genocide occurred in Bosnia, it occurred on both sides and both sides are equally responsible for that disaster. I am afraid that the further insisting on the "one-sided genocide" could cause a new bloody war in Bosnia; and I believe that no one here (instead of Mr. Dobbs) would like it to happen again.
Interesting, Michael Dobbs avoids any substantial discussion. One thing is here of great importance: I suppose, there is no other way to prove that the Muslim soldiers were killed as prisoners of war, except to count the number of ligatures found in mass graves. As far as I know, the number of ligatures found in all mass graves is about 500 and it means that these Muslim soldiers were certainly executed.
Surely, there were soldiers, whose hands hadn't been tied up, and who (in revenge) were executed on the spot. But, their number couldn't be large, and for sure, couldn't be larger than the number of those who were first imprisoned and killed afterwards. Namely, after the hundreds of enemy soldiers were captured they must somehow be immobilized (controlled). Following this logic we may conclude (quite opposite to what Mr. Dobbs surmised) that less than a thousand able-bodied Muslim men were executed, while the others (the exact number is still to be decided) lost their lives in combat.
I would like to hear your opinions on that… Mr. Dobbs?
@sheranophi @Gosteljski @michaeldobbs
[... I personally think the "Serb" casulaties are all propaganda and bullshit...]
All the victims in Bosnia were the Serbs (Orthodox, Mohammedans, Catholics); or, if you like, the former Serbs.
Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02694a.htm
"According to the census of 22 April 1895, Bosnia has 1,361,868 inhabitants and Herzegovina 229,168, giving a total population of 1,591,036... Excluding some 30,000 Albanians living in the south-east, the Jews who emigrated in earlier times from Spain, a few Osmanli Turks, the merchants, officials. and Austrian troops, the rest of the population (about 98 per cent) belong to the southern Slavonic people, the Serbs."
Arthur Schneier is the Clinton's private Rabbi. Both of them received (and still are receiving) a large amount of money from King Abdullah and his predecessor King Fahd. In fact, although it looks odd, The Holocaust Museum in Washington is financed by Muslim donors, and Muslims are paying Michael Dobbs scribbling.
[...It would be good if Bosnians of all ethnicities could remember this tragedy, pay their respects to the victims, and move on, as happened in Germany after World War II...]
Mr. Dobbs, it seems to be that your job is to convince the FP readers (strangely, with the financial help of the Holocaust Museum in Washington!) that during the 1992-95 Bosnian war the Serbs committed the same crime of genocide as the German Nazis did in the second world war. What a humiliation and disrespect towards the millions of the European Jews who were exposed to an unprecedented mass murder without discrimination (babies in cradles, kindergarten children, boys and girls, the old helpless people, men and women – all alike). In one of your previous articles you tried to explain the gravity of the notion of "genocide", saying:
"I must admit that I find it difficult to use the word genocide, which conjures up images of the Holocaust."
And you even added (http://dobbs.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/10/31/defining_genocide):
"My reluctance to use the word genocide, particularly in casual conversation, stems in part from the way in which the expression has been abused by all sides in the former Yugoslavia. Muslims, Serbs, and Croats accuse each other of genocide on a routine basis when talking about alleged war crimes committed against them. It is important that outsiders avoid the inflammatory rhetoric that has become so poisonous and commonplace in this part of the world. When we employ terms like 'genocide', we need to be careful to explain exactly what we mean, and use the words in a very specific context."
Of course, after some of the American and Canadian islamic organizations attacked you severely you retracted your words and submissively apologized for daring to think with your mind instead of with Muslim emotions and wishes. This – what you are doing now – is the nastiest kind of anti-Semitism and I do not understand how the Jewish circles could tolerate your outspoken rudeness, insolence and an open indignation towards the millions of their WWII victims.
This is the reason why I questioned the credibility of Elvedin's testimony: Now he's saying that he was forced to go through the gauntlet of angry Serbs with axes and sticks and that he was beaten ON THE KNEES. Unlike this, in Brđanin case (2003) and Krajišnik case (2004) he told that he was beaten ON THE BACK.
I do not believe that he wouldn't remember exactly at what part of his body he was hit with a stick or an ax
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/brdanin/trans/en/030714ED.htm (Page 19435; Brdjanin case 2003)
@sheranophi @michaeldobbs And...? Nothing contradictory to what I have said above.
You said that the "Serbs lost nothing", showing no respect to thousands of the Serbian victims. Nevertheless, Mr. Dobbs would never dare to say that your comment was shameful. Moreover, I bet, Mr. Dobbs shares your opinion here. Shamefulness (according to Dobbs and similar scribblers) is always on the side of the Orthodox Serbs.
Unfortunately, a majority of the Muslim citizens in Bosnia, even today, believe that the Serbs should have been expelled from the "Muslim Bosnia". On the other side, for the international use, they are talking about "multiethnic Bosnia", trying to grab the whole Bosnia for them (but first they have to annihilate the Republic of Srpska). Anyone with a sound mind can see that there is no peace between the Serbs (Christians) and the Serbs (Muslims) in Bosnia, until we realize that the both side suffered equally during the 1992/95 Bosnian civil war.
Instead, you are stealing the Serbian heritage in Bosnia, trying to make a new ethnicity of the Serbs of Islamic faith. Bošnjak (Bosniak) is a well-known Serbian surname (thousands of Serbs are carrying it) and Bosanac (Bosnian) is a topographical name of all the Serbs (Orthodox, Islamic, Catholic) living in Bosnia.
@michaeldobbs [...If I were not committed to free speech on this blog, I would certainly remove them...]
The above sentence speaks (enough) in favor of the (rotten) status of your psyche.
I was wrong, you said "innocent teenager". But, doesn't matter, a fourteen years old teenager is still a child.
And I agree with your remark that we all "should display respect for victims" – as you added – "of whatever ethnicity". But your behavior here doesn't seem to be in accordance with your own words, you do not pay respect to the Serbian victims; or you believe you do?
I suggest you may alter your above statement in order to fit your position: people should display respect for any ethnicity, except for the Serbian one.
First, if you want to be a "man of honor" you need to say why do you find my above comment shameful? As I told you earlier, you are using a primitive logic of a heavy drunkard. And, in addition, you are casting spells on me as an inquisitor from the dark ages (a primitive reaction again).
If you have read carefully what I had wrote you would have seen that I didn't try to deny the killing of POW in Večići. It is possible that Elvedin's father was killed in the battle, as well as it is possible that he was executed later. There were thousands of cases of the violations of Geneva Convention on all warring factions in the latest Yugoslav war.
Also, there are thousands of Serbian children who had similar or worse destiny, who lost one or both of their parents, and a great number of relatives. Many of their parents, too, were killed without trial, as prisoners of war. You have some of that cases filmed and you can find it on the internet if you wish. But you are not paid to talk about Serbian suffering and, according to you and those like you, only Muslim children are innocent.
What I was against, it was the way of propaganda where you were trying to affect the public mind by misusing emotions of an "innocent child" and the "tears" of the same "child" through the weeping of a grown up man. I put this sintagma (innocent child) under the quotes because you have mentioned (underlined) it in your article and not because I wanted to say that Elvedin (as child) wasn't innocent.
Look at this Serbian POW and civilians near Srebrenica who were captured, killed, impaled, burnt and mutilated in many different ways http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpHka8cUEdE But, again, I understand, you are not paid to investigate Muslim war crimes around Srebrenica.
Your behavior is shameful Mr. Dobbs, because you are trying to establish the staged (fictional, false) "reality" in a Hollywood manner by portraying the Serbs as villain (bad guys) and the Muslims as innocent victims (good guys). And you still do it intentionally, although you are well aware it wasn't the truth. Namely, you are shamelessly continuing with the proliferation of lies and an immoral and criminal anti-Serbian propaganda.
[...It was easy to understand why prosecutors chose Pasic to speak on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of victims of the three and a half-year Bosnia war. He delivered his testimony in fluent English learned as a refugee in the United States. His detailed recounting of atrocities seen through the eyes of an innocent teenager made him a particularly convincing witness....]
Yes, of course, it is easy to understand what the main motif was to bring to court this professional crier; witness whose task is to touch the heart of the misinformed public across the Western world. What a childish and pellucid try to prove the Serbian "genocidal nature" through the use of an enormous instillation of false emotions.
And it was a story told by an "innocent teenager" (again "heartbreaking!"), who is 35 now and who was brought up and educated in the USA(!); it seems, doing nothing but crying and repeating the tragic story about destiny of his father. Mr. Dobbs, why do you not ask yourself, is there any credibility in the Elvedin's testimony? First he fled away from his home frightened of ferocious (vicious, brutal) Serbian soldiers and a few weeks later he returns to his village (Hrvaćani), together with his mother… and directly through the lines of the Serbian "monstrous killers". Elvedin said that "his family was chased around Bosnia by Serb forces", and for the God's sake, how it happened the Serbs didn't "charred him alive" when he and his mother visited their village, obviously (but unconceivable), showing no fear of the Serbian "genocidal race".
Even he was beaten on the knees with "sticks and axes"?! What a foolish and ridiculous (idiotic) western world!