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@steppxxxxz Sigh...who is fawning over lebron? The beard or tattoo thing was a joke, because frankly if you made your case for why you think he is not a great basketball player, you have failed miserably. And this, "I can tell you for sure, Durant, Parker and even Love and Rondo are better MVP votes." . Yes, that is your opinion, which is shared by very, very few and again ludicrous on the face of it. I know, I know. Rings are the only sign of being a "great basketball player". I don't share that view. And for the third time, yes. He did take over that game. Your continuing intransigence to giving him any sort of due is all I need to know, so I'll bow out trying to convince you of something you have no desire to be convinced of.
2 years, 7 months ago on NBA Playoffs: Back To Indiana Now
@Lexo And we disagreed about the "talent" on those Cleveland teams, too. As for falling short again this year, should that happen, I will assess "how" they fell short and assign proper blame, then. It sounds like you've predetermined your conclusion before it even playsout. Other than the Finals last year, it is incumbent upon you guys to show how he has failed.
@steppxxxxz And of course he makes those around him better. The cavs teams were the perfect example. And you do realize that they came within two games of winning it all last year, what with that "terrible" supporting cast and all. You are all over the place. Just say it. You don't like the beard.
@steppxxxxz See, that is a pure unadulterated lie. Of course they do and they have. But, see here I don't even buy that premise. That game was not lost because he missed those two free throws. That game was lost because the "help" failed miserably. And yes, he did take over the game before. Sounds like you have one standard for James and another for others. You still have faield to make your case of why he isn't a great basketball player. You don't want to give him his due for reason other than basketball. Is it the tattoos or the beard?
@Lexo How is Dwayne Wade playing right now? That's on James, too? James had one legit chance to win it all and he choked. There is no doubt about that. However, that shouldn't, nor does it to anyone who is objective, define him as a choker. I never said Lebron's help was that bad. The original commenter said that. Again, I can't disagree with anyone who says that James choked last year in the finals. He did. I saw it with my own two eyes. However, the original poster claimed that James never takes over games and wins them, which is just an absolutely ludicrous statement. I also surmised that the original poster never comes out and acknowledges these instances, due to the fact, that there was a perfect example of one just the game before.
@steppxxxxz Everyone misses free throws. You still can't articulate why you think he isn't a great basketball player, well without using subjective and biased opinion, that is. The reality is that he is a great basketball player that hasn't been on a winning team. That's fact. And last year it is very fair to say that he choked in the finals fourth quarters, whatever the reason is. As for the teammates thing, then you can show me "great basketball players" who have won it all without "help" from their teammates? That should be easy. Listen, you started off your comment with an egregious error. He had just, the game before, took over a game and played great in the fourth quarter and they won. You have to prove your assertion with more than just opinions, that are obviously formed by subjective thought rather than objective observation.
Yeah, a tough loss for the Heat, especially at home. The "help" didn't help. The third leading scorer scored 5 points. That's not cutting it in the playoffs. Lebron's missed FTs obviously hurt, too. But, somebody else has to step up. A loss is still a loss, but the Heat can take solace int he fact that it was just a 3 point loss where nobody not named Wade or James could score. Great job to Indiana, though. They played tough and inspired. It is now a great series.
@steppxxxxz What? He has taken over countless games. You're probably conspicuously absent after the many, many games he takes over and they win. Shit, he took over the previous freaking game. It wasn't too far back to have a perfect example of what you're ankle biting about. I don't get you people. Is it the beard? The tattoos? The receding hairline? What is it that makes presumably reasonable people lose their senses in regards to james?
The Heat lost last night because the help was horrendous and couldn't score a point. You contradict yourself in your comment, too. First, it's Lebron isn't a "great basketball player" (that in and of itself is ludicrous) and then you say that if you took him and Wade off the team, the rest of the team is terrible. So, he must be a great basketball player to bring this terrible team to the finals, his first year, and into the second round of the playoffs, his second year. You're basically correct about one thing. Their coach is bad. Spo must go, no matters what happens the rest of the way.
Hey guys, I'm putting this up here because the thread has gotten too convoluted. Anyhow, I guess we can just agree to disagree. I think Lexo very much overrates James' Cleveland teammates, however. As I said below, if James pulls another choke job this year in any round of the playoffs, I'll be in complete agreement with you guys, because obviously he has players. In that regard I am in complete agreement with stepxxxxz. His team needs to win one to put this stuff to rest. Last year's finals was strange, but mostly because he was what you say he isn't in the two rounds leading up to the Finals. However, each step up brings additional pressure. Anyhow, anytime I have come across people being critical of James, they are usually morons who hate him for reasons having nothing to do with basketball. This was a refreshing change. For that, thanks. We'll talk again.
2 years, 9 months ago on Welcome to The Clutch Cube: Part I - LeBron James
@steppxxxxz The only way a player can make those players around him better is by drawing attention (double teams, traps, etc...) thus giving open looks to those players. Kobe does this, without question. But so does Lebron. And I usually don't make appeals to authority, but in this case, I will. Mike Brown and Eric Spoelstra would both vehemently disagree with whether or not James makes his teammates better. Again, and I know we're on the same page here, last year was all on James. I'm just betting he doesn't do it again.
@Lexo @steppxxxxz I watched every game. They had a very good perimeter defense, but when the playoffs came and points were at a premium, they couldn't score. Nobody but lebron could create his own shot. It takes more than one great player and some role players to win a championship. Nobody has done it, so I wonder why you think Lebron should have done it?
@Lexo @steppxxxxz I do remember Smush Parker. Lebron dragged him to the playoffs. He also had the unfortunate occasion to play with Chris Mihm. And Odom and Butler were not bad. Not great, but not bad. I know the Cavs' rosters, as I am a die hard Cavs fan. No, they were not championship caliber. Lebron drug a very mediocre team to the finals, something Kobe has never done.
@steppxxxxz You chastised the Hawksfan for "defending" lebron. Kobe fans do it all the time too, for Kobe.
@Lexo @steppxxxxz Yes, I do realize that it is a team sport. It seems you guys are the ones who is forgetting that. Bad coaching? The Zen Master? Plus, he had Odom and Caron Butler so you're minimizing Kobe's support at the same time as over rating Lebron's, during his time with the Cavs. Listen, I'm not faulting Kobe for not winning anything in those seasons, because I do realize that it is a team sport. I'm the one being consistent here. Kobe didn't win those five rings alone. The first three, he was not the best, nor most productive player on the Lakers, either. The second two, he was the best, obviously, but not most productive. I Know, you're going to fall back to your subjective analysis (I can't debate your feelings), now, but the numbers do tell a story. Again, I'm not faulting Kobe for not winning when he didn't have another superstar. Nobody does. And again, I am faulting James for not winning last year as he did indeed choke.
@Lexo No, the Cavs team had no shot at winning against the Spurs, so I have to disagree with premise entirely. And no, Mo Williams did not play "great" those years. Another premise that is flat out wrong. Mo was always decent to good offensively, but the man can't play defense to save his life. I saw it time after time. And, no they did not have the best all around talent. What would give you that impression? They were a great regular season team, because of Lebron and a good defense. When the playoffs came, their offensive problems were exposed big time. As for the Orlando series, I wouldn't blame Lebron, the guy who averaged 40, 8 and 8 and still played his usual great defense. And your last line is ridiculous. Your relying on subjective measurements, while the truth is that James is so much more the player than either of those guys. You're not a hater, but you are jaded when it comes to James.
@steppxxxxz Oh, so you are unserious. Titles? Your argument is based on one series, in which I agree, he choked. But the fact that you don't take any other series into consideration is eye opening.
@steppxxxxz Um is LBJ bitching or is one of his fans? Kobe fans bitch incessantly, so another point just went up in smoke.
@steppxxxxz Ha, the old "they make players better" argument, which absolutely falls flat on it's face when those players are already very good to hall of famer caliber anyhow. How did Kobe make his teammates better, when there was no other second superstar? He didn't and they were relatively bad. And hell, he still had a hall of fame coach.
@TheFix82 How about Kobe's? You have a very narrow focus. Public schooling, I guess.
@Lexo @hawksfan Lebron was never really on a bad team, because that team had Lebron. Those Cleveland teams were not garbage but hardly championship material and James took them further than anyone could imagine. It takes more than one great player to win (maybe 4 very good ones ala Detroit) and lebron's best teammate while in Cleveland was either Mo Williams or Z. No, they had no chance, except the chance that Lebron gave them. The cavs had no chance against the Spurs. As for Miami, that's a different story and as a big Lebron fan, I can admit that he choked last year in the finals.
@Lexo But he was the best player on the floor. It sounds, to me, that your only metric is scoring. Way too narrow a focus. Kobe shot well as he sometimes does. Kobe did nothing of merit, otherwise. I can agree that clutch is hard to peg down, but if you agree on a definition, it really isn't. And "not up to par" is decidedly different than "bad". I can tell you're not a James hating idiot, so I know you know that words have meanings :)
@Lexo Oh, no it's not. And that is not the narrative about his teams in Cleveland. They were always a very good defensive team (not monster, that's absurd), that had some holes on the offensive side of the court. As far as Kobe taking his lunch money, I think you saw the ESPN highlights and nothing else, because as usual James was the best player on the court, but Miami still lost. And no, you do not judge a player on number of championships, especially when that player isn't even close to being done as a player. That's facile thinking.