ThePainefulTruth
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Well put ! And along the lines of what to do to counter the problem there is something very powerful regarding the issue of the 16th Amendment, which is why I recommend researching the site called "Lost Horizons.com" for ALL the confirming proofs of the correct understanding of the Income Tax ! It ALL boils down to a Federal tax on Federal income ie. Federal "activities" involving the Federal government producing Federal Income ! A State tax is assessed on State government "activities" creating / producing income and finally a Local ( County or City) tax is assessed on Local government "activities" creating / producing income ! All the activities producing income must be from "activities" involving the governments / of their "jurisdiction " ( subject matter ) ! In other words what is received as income from "activities" involving the government is "Priviledged" income from that which is "Priviledge", and is within their "Jurisdiction" ( subject matter ), therefore proper to tax as a "Priviledge" ( Priviledged Income ) from "Priviledged activity" involving the government . All taxes are indirect to the Individual Natural Person / Citizen since there CANNOT BE a "Direct Tax" on the Individual Natural Person / Citizen ! The 16th Amendment only reasserted Congress' Constitutional privliedge to tax "Indirectly", and QUALIFIED THAT WHICH IS "PRIVILEDGED ACTIVITY" to be properly taxable as "INCOME" by government , since government connected "activity" falls within it's subject matter "jurisdiction", reach , to tax ! Priviledges are proper to tax , Never RIGHTS ! The "Priviledges" to be taxed must be of their "Jurisdiction" to be taxable by them . Jurisdiction is the KEY ! ALL Government "Activity" is "Priviledge" ! ALL "Private" Sector activity is area of Right ! It is essentially a "Civil Service" income tax , along with a tax on "Activities" that produce income ( gain , profit ) because they involve / are from government connected "activitiy" of the government's "jurisdiction" . Go to LOST HORIZONS.COM for more on the subject !
@PatrickRohrbach Agreed ! And ALL public "employees" must pass a civics / citizensjhip test that is based on a comprehensive and accurate knowledge of the Fundamental LAW and Founding Principles upon which this great republic was founded ! Then and ONLY then will they be qualified to run / serve in the public trust ! This was the intended idea of the original Constitutional requirement that Congressional "Electors" be chosen from and by the States and the States' representatives ( to perpetuate a sound sense of purpose , knowledge and fidelity to the original Principles upon which this Country was founded ) so that our "representatives' would be qualified and know just how to properly serve us as OUR "representatives" ( This is why we must repeal the 17th Amendment ! Or just ACT on the fact that the 17th Amendment is NOT Legitimate / Lawful since it does NOT comply with the requirement that ALL Laws / Treaties etc. MUST BE IN PURSUANCE OF the Constitution ) . And If they did'nt then they were to be snatched back out of office with extereme prejudice and forbidden to serve in the public trust ever again ! And if they committed treason , rescind their Citizenship and/or punish them in central square for their treasonous acts ! And if they are guilty of financial crimes then ALL their assets are extracted from their estates ! No Acts , or even the appearance of infidelity and / or lack of Integrity / patronage to this "Republic" was to be tolerated , AT ALL ! This was the idea behind, and intended purpose for, the ratification of the original 13th Amendment ! Yes , This WAS ratified and must be reasserted ! Just ENFORCE THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION AND IT'S LAWS AS WRITTEN , THEN ALL WILL BE IN THEIR PROPER ORDER and JUST PERSPECTIVE !
@AnthonyJamesPalumbo Commentary such as yours is completely OUT OF CONTEXT with the prevailing UNDERSTANDING and ACCEPTANCE of what constituted COMMON LAW RIGHT even before settling of the New World by a few hundered years and even today still ! The preamble to the Bill of Rights refers to the general government because it is addressing the idea of general government ! The Bill of Rights already existed before the creation of the US Constitution and was derived from the States constitutions as the model to be re-inforced as such as ALREADY applied to the STATE GOV'TS ( and by extension applies to all gov't ) and is intended to prevent misinterpretation of fundamental inherent Common Law truths long since acccepted as self evident , and established / accepted as such by the English Bill of Rights and the Magna Carta , etc. ... continuing on through today ! Your reply suggests you have NOT gone back far enough in your research ( hence the missing sense of perspective ) to come up with the correct conclusion . Quite frankly many of the early statesmen and judges still had a hard time finally sorting out these issues ( as you mentioned , even James Madison came around to Jeffersonian perspective ) . This conclusion of what is the "right / correct " understanding / interpretation / meaning is proven by the fact that all correct interpretation / understanding / meaning always re-proves ( is in accord with ) the other parts of the whole and does NOT conflict with any other parts of the whole of the US Constitution, or the Constitutions of the States of America . This is the key to KNOWING the correct understanding / meaning / interpretation / intent of the documents ; that is ... they are based on the "absolute" LOGIC of never conflicting with any other part of the documents ( they are in absolute accord with each other since they are unified in the same "intentended" meaning ) thus giving it the condition of resolving all matters of "State" and "Society" , and the relationship between the two ! See "Abel Upshure's" work entitled " A brief Enquiry into the True Nature and Character of the Federal Government " to re-educate yourself with the correct understanding and intended purpose of the US Constitution . Also when you state that the second ammendment "only" applies to the federal government I can't help but ask you ; What part of the the US Constitution IS the "Supreme Law" of the Land , do You NOT get ? Also when it declares that ALL Government and Public figures and Judges and Laws / Legislation , Treaties , Executive Orders , ie. "everything" , ... MUST comply with the US Constitution ... or be deemed "Unconstitutional" !
Uhh ... is that a crack pipe I see in your pocket , or ... uh oh ... hey man , I don't ride on that side of the road Bill . Yikes !, I'm bailin' outta here ! My Pappy once told me that if you want to be an Eagle you gotta stop hangin' out with Turkeys . See you later ... Turkey !
Puff ... Puff ... ........ ......... slowly exhale , cough ...cough .... you're right Bill this is goood chibba , some goood shit !
Yes ! And conversely it can be shown by the US Constitution and reason / logic that the ONLY powers allowed / granted to the Federal government / Congress concerning any activity of Common Defense and / or the general Welfare is "specifically enumerated" and "limited" to those in Art. I sec. 8 . No other powers concerning these two "general" topics / catagories belong to Congress / the Federal government ... period ! These two topics / catagories of "general" and "common" interest are NOT powers in and of themselves ( as explained by Madison , by reason and logic , and others ... both Federalists and Anti-Federalists , in debate ) but areas / topics / catagories to be dealt with by the "specifically enumerated" powers ... otherwise what would be the point of "specifically enumerating" powers if the "general" and "common" topics are to be interpreted as "powers" of their own thereby negating the point of enumerating specific powers , which would NOT "limit" government ! ?
No Bill , it is'nt Wallace that has You all screwed up ! You've taken care of that all by Yourself .
Read it again , Bill . I said William Wallace "fought" for Rights , because He knew they were inherent ! The Rights became acknowledged as the "English Bill of Rights" . Try to leave out your desparate storyline while reading comments of others and you will get better results in understanding what is said . Without acknowledgement of Universal Rights of Man ... YOU are just a "bug" to be squashed by someone with malice towards you , hence the point and purpose of a government to provide some protections / repercussions in the event of this horrible , horrible , event . Government is simply a mutual accord to create a larger entity as a deterent against such actions , to provide a greater level / sense of security of our inherent Rights . Comprende ?
All Gov't is created by the consent of " Sovereign Individuals" , to serve the People ( Individual Sovereigns ) by "Protecting / Securing" the "Rights of Individuals" , NEVER to take away Individual Rights except in restoration of Rights lost to the injured . Our "Inherent" Rights are from our Creator , based on "Natural Law" / "Law of Nature" , Logic and Reason , and "Common Law" stemming from the English Bill of Rights of 1066 fought for by William Wallace and the Magna Carta of 1215 fought for by the English Baronage and still our Common Law to this day ! These are the "other" Rights referred to by the 9th Article of the Bil of Rights INCLUDED as original to the Constitution !The US Constitution IS "Common Law" and superior to ALL other LAW as regards Individual Rights of Individual Sovereigns ! The Constitution ... All Constitutions are to to LIMIT Gov't to the role of serving the Individuals of society in securing their individual Sovereignty / Rights and NOT allow it to abuse that "priviledged" service !
@LloydThomasSloan Gee , thanks for telling us the"Truth" as YOU see it Lloyd ! Gee , I wonder what the TAC ( 10th Amm Center ) IS all about ? HMmmm ? ... Still wondering ... maybe I should just ask a bunch of Clueless Questions and see what sticks to my forehead . Then while staring at the ceiling for revelation I might be fortunate enough to have some convoluted ideas come to mind ! Yes ! , that's the "Ticket" ! Now for my Gaggle of statements before I demand answers to my confused questions that these pukes can't answer , hahahahahahaha ! I'll "Get them " !
@LloydThomasSloan I am truly sorry you have such a confused state of mind . I hope you can finally sort things out clearly one day . YOU must be living in a "Nightmare" ! It is hard to relate to one who is so utterly self - deluded and reluctant to be open minded on matters of conflicting position . Good luck with your "English" lessons and "non-research" self study !
@LloydThomasSloan Wow! You offer one MESSED UP COMMENTARY to reply to ! So , here goes ... YOU are wrong , wrong , no ,no ,wrong , wrong , yes , that's your opinion , no , yes , maybe ... depends on topic , no , no , so what , wrong , wrong , WRONG AGAIN ! and finally for an explanation of you and your English lessons on "Logical" Deductive reasoning ( Good Grief ! ) ... Stupit is as Stoopit thinks ...er... does ... no ...says... er... help me Mr Wizard ! LOL !
@LloydThomasSloan You're wrong Lloyd ! The 9th and10th ammendments include ALL Common Law preceding and leading up to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of these united States of America , and from which the Bill of Rights is derived ! You misstate on several points ! First , you state that we are dealing with a "broken" Constitution ? ! There is NO such thing , ONLY "non-compliance" with it ! Second , Secession and nullification are NOT theories , they are Acts / Actions ! Third , these Acts / Actions are NOT Ammendments nor follow any Constitutional procedure since they have "pre-eminent" status to the Constitution since Peoples / Townships / Colonies / Counties / States / Nations were Sovereign before they agreed/ decided to unite by Compact , and are of the many "rights" included by 9th and 10th Ammendments that "precede" the founding of America . It is "Fundamental" logic and reason that proves that Secession and Nullification are "Inherent" RIGHTS of Any and All Sovereigns ! Fourth , the Declaration of Independence , the Constitution of these united States of America and the Bill of Rights are formulated IDEAS set on parchment to provide , preserve , protect ( ie. to Guarantee ) Freedom , Liberty , Sovereignty and the pursuit of Happiness ; thus are NOT to be usurped / revised / repealed , but can be pursued further with additions / ammendments in pursuance of the "intended meaning" of the Declaration of Independence ! Fifth , the Constitution Delegates certain LIMITED powers to government and PROHIBITS the abuse of the Sovereigns / Rights by government . Government / the Constitution does NOT have authority over Rights !
@JamesP.Delaney @LloydThomasSloan @FL10thAmendment Well put James . AND ... We must STOP acting as if permission is needed from Congress or the Federal Gov't , in matters NOT of their given "Specifically Enumerated Powers", and matters of Constitutional misconstruction / misinterpretation by them . Afterall they are to serve the States ( hence the People ) in ALL matters / concerns , NOT the other way around since the Sovereign States / Sovereign Citizens have "Sovereign pre-eminence" ! This false / incorrect perspective that the Congress / Federal Gov't runs the country is "Driven" by the Federal Government funding / doling out "ill-gotten" funds ( based on "unrealized gain" / MONETIZED money) to the States / Citizens thereby infusing "easy money" into the money supply engendering overspending and extorting compliance by setting them up to be needy of / addicted to the Congress / Federal Gov't and it's flow of FIAT money ! These loans are beyond the ability to realize enough ROI / gain to pay down / pay back due to irresponsible stewardship by our representatives and are ultimately for "political" favor in return / increased control ! This Unconstitutional misappropriation of funds , "pork barrel" legislation , and irrational borrowing from the Federal Reserve defies sound money practices and responsible budgetary control , which causes "Odious Debt" ! These are their crimes against humanity ! Now , the States must Stop borrowing / demanding from Congress / the Federal Gov't ( beyond their ability to realize enough gain / ROI to pay down / pay back the debts in a much more "practical" timeframe ) to get their budgets back to "real time" affordability practices ! The People must Stop asking / demanding from Gov't that which they are NOT supposed to demand / request ( misappropriation of funds ) and / or can't afford ( realize an ROI in a "practical" timeframe ) also ! In other words we must get back to a "Cash & Carry" budgetary plan to rid ourselves of this debt burden lifestyle / practice AND Prosecute ALL those involved in the creation of this massive (unconstitutional) amount of "ODIOUS DEBT" ! In light of these events / conditions , does anyone really doubt that "Nullification" is justified / proper / Constitutional ? ! ... Certainly NOT anyone who understands and defends "Individual Sovereignty" and Liberty !
@JamesP.Delaney Sorry about that ! No , the reply was for Picnicphones . I find your replies / comments to be quite good and helpful !
@picnicphones @JamesP.Delaney Such is the Plight of Liberty and Freedom we ALL must contend with in our pursuence of happiness ! Ask yourself if the SCOTUS opinion is being recognized properly for what it ultimately DOES / CAN mean vs. what it is being "interpreted" to mean ( this is in regard to what is referred to as the "Sophistry" of the Courts / Law makers ) , and if the Defendant /
Plaintiff is even making their "CASE" based on the correct / most poignant perspective / incisive lawful basis . This is the very reason for why much more study / research is required / necessary ! The "Case" must be such that it pierces through the veil of secrecy / confusion / occlusion of the MOST IMPORTANT and IDEAL BASIS for ALL "JUST" LAW , in a FREE "Society" where ALL men are declared to be equal in the eyes of the Law , that is ... the "sanctity" of "Individual Citizen Sovereignty" MUST BE PRESERVED , or ALL IS FOR NAUGHT ! Hence , the choice of a "REPUBLIC" as the "Style" of American governance ( NOT a "Democracy" ) and "Guaranteed" by OUR Constitution throughout the land based on THE RULE OF LAW , so that the "Individual" is protected in their state of "Sovereignty" ! As Patrick Henry put it best " ... GIVE ME LIBERTY or GIVE ME DEATH ! " . Time to make your stand ! Do the research so you'll know where to "stand" .
@picnicphones Sorry if my reply verges on hostility , it is really more of frustration since the answer to your suggested point is very involved . Your question indicates so little knowledge of Constitutional fundamentals , which even seasoned conservatives convolute and mistake for correct understanding as revealed here in this forum , so you're NOT alone in this regard ! Here is a short ( trust me , it is short ) summary of explanation , First , the 10th A does not take anything from the Congress/ Federal gov't , it just declares , by reason / logic , what LARGE and MANY POWERS are "retained" / "remains" with the States and / or the People , since the Fed / Congress is "granted" (by the States ! ) L I M I T E D "specifically enumerated" powers ! Second , the Fed / Congress IS NOT given any power over Healthcare ( NO "specific enumeration" ) ! Third , the power to tax is FOR / LIMITED to those "specifically enumerated" areas of consideration ONLY and must be done according to "Necessary and Proper" justification ! Fourth , the 16th Ammendment DOES NOT allow a tax on "ANY and ALL" income ! This is clearly covered in the Constitution by the two references given to you . "Direct" Taxes apply ONLY to the States ! The Fed / "General Gov't" was created to serve the States / "Local Gov't " (hence, the People) and must request money / "Direct" Taxes from the States , IF necessary , or receive money by "Indirect" Taxes ( what we pay when we CHOOSE ( "volunteer" ) to buy things , or ENGAGE in Activites , under their Administrative authority to control ( hence "Indirect" ) . These come in the form of "Customs" / "Imposts" , "Duties" , "Excise" Taxes in their many applications and must be "necessary and proper" ! There CANNOT be a tax on the "individual" ( this is a "Capitation" tax , NOT allowed ) ! This Constitutional mandate is declared TWICE in the first Article as referenced you , and also explains why the 16th Ammendment CANNOT apply to the income of "individuals" ( "Direct" Tax ) but really applies to "Activities" under Federal Administrative authority ( by "Voluntary" choice to engage ) because it falls under Federal JURISDICTION as such ! So , the target of the Federal Income Tax is ... FEDERAL INCOME ! That which COMES FROM the Federal Government ! Gov't IS "Priviledge" , therefore what comes from "Priviledge" is "Necessary and Proper" to tax as such ! RIGHTS may NEVER be taxed or regulated ! The separating factor is whether the income comes from a "Priviledged" activity, ie. that which is PUBLIC SECTOR , NOT PRIVATE SECTOR ! THIS , is the "short" explanation .
@picnicphones Yes , YOU are missing quite a bit actually ! Try starting with some actual research of the "Liberty" documents referred to by the "Original Meaning" proponents ( Bastiat - The LAW , Mill - On Liberty , Montesque - The State , Tocqueville - American Democracy , Adam Smith - The Wealth of Nations , Vattel - The Law of Nations , The Fedralist Papers , The Anti-Federalist Papers , Thomas Paine - Common sense / Age of Reason / Rights of Man , Hobbes - Leviathan , Locke - The Social Contract , Rossieu ... you know what , just go to the website "The Constitution Society" to learn enough to begin a conversation with enough understanding to address such fundamental questions as you ask ! Also take a gander with the US Constitution Article I sec.2 para 3 , and Article I sec. 9 para.4 ; also try your intellect at the "Lost Horizons" website for the most in depth explanation of what it is you truly lack in understanding "Constitutional" taxation ! Then come back and tell us just how much you really did'nt know correctly .
@gypsynovus WOW ! Compelling reasoning ! Do go on , I love a good MYSTERY ! You've got me on the edge of my seat now ! Don't leave a "bro" hangin' now , come on ! ! Is it Mr Plum in the library with the candelstick ? Please ! PLEASE ! I'm beggin' you ! Give me MORE !
@gypsynovus Your message is too brief and vague for me to know what you mean / what you are referring to ( previous subject / topic ) as usual , please elaborate .