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This woman is a student, if she is a traditional student and in undergrad, then she isn't that old, so she gets a teeny tiny crumb of a pass from me as she has more living to do. One thing I noticed clicking the link briefly, and then running away is that she identifies as mixed. I don't want to sidetrack or start a war, but I've had the experience on multiple occasions where mixed or very light women will insist that white men are the devil to be avoided at all costs and that only black men are decent.
I think this might be because she probably is speaking from a position of privilege as she might legitimately be receiving better treatment from color-struck black men, which is still a form of fetishizing. I've also noticed this attitude to be very common in lighter black women are overweight, slightly so or extremely so, they might be having a harder time attracting the attention or respectful approach of types of men so since only black men pay attention they have a deathgrip on them. A similar discussion came up a long time ago on "A Black Girl's Guide to Weightloss", where commenters brought up the role of colorism in a post on "dating while fat".
Spaces like these are a huge threat to women like her because they fear that black men will think twice when approaching which doesn't leave her with many other options. I think this article is ridiculous, but I don't think its completely fair to discount what her actual experiences might be versus overall trends in how black men treat black women.
4 months, 2 weeks ago on This is one of the Reasons So Many White Guys Think Black Women are Off Limits.
@Toni_M I agree. I just want to say classism isn't inherently a bad thing. Its a form of protection. When families and ethnic groups practice it, its because they are attempting to protect assets, properties, social standing and interests.
5 months ago on Show Me the Links!! We're Self-Hating "White Meat" Chasers? Show Me Where.
The only crime this site could sometimes be accused of is classism. But since DBR blacks instinctively associate seeking higher class with seeking white, self-improvement articles are automatically associated with "wanting to be white", or "white worship", in my humble opinion.
As for a lot of the articles specifically mentioning white men, why wouldn't they? As someone engaged to a south Asian man, even I think it would be INSANE to tell black women seeking interracial relationships to overlook nearly 70% of the male population. Especially when that 70% is more likely to have the qualities upwardly mobile women are looking for. And inter-marriage with other types of man has been mentioned on this site, but look at all the biases some groups have towards African-Americans, that includes black immigrant groups.
Mentioning white men only makes those on Clutch and other sites extremely uncomfortable because it breaks down that myth of POC solidarity they seem so attached to. The idea that its OK as long as they aren't white. If you look on most of those sites, there are TONS of non-black women mentioned where its business at usual, but very few non-black men NOT mentioned in a negative context. Essence puts a man who doesn't even date black women on its cover, call me when a man of any other race who DOES date black women makes the cover, especially a white man.
These women are so used to the men in their communities and families picking up any other community's leftovers, that they expect all of us to be happy doing the same. They don't realize that its more compilcated to date and marry when you wish to be upwardly mobile and practice hypergamy and are black because the people you seek out are vetting you just as you are vetting them.
To answer some comments below, there is a racist undercurrent in many European nations that the people that live there won't cop to or fully admit. Its different than it is here in the US because they have a different history. And interracial relationships aren't going to fix or change that. That shouldn't stop anyone from dating, travelling and living their lives.
Especially when you consider, the high level of income disparity amongst ethnic minorities and whites. All you have, particularly in the UK are black men from the lower class, taking up with white women from the lower class and raising a mixed child at a socioeconomic disadvantage. We all know the correlation between poverty and crime and many other things. You can't blame this all on DBR African-Americans as minorities in some European countries are worse off socioeconomically than they are here in the US if you look at the numbers.
I do think what happened in London was an isolated incident, but as someone who has travelled to and worked in many cities, I'm always on guard, whether I'm alone or not and I would advise anyone to do the same, I don't think anyone should be discouraged or afraid.
5 months, 1 week ago on On Your Guard: The 'Blacklash' Has Begun. Violence Against BW/WM Couples and Families Trending.
@StarleishaG also, if you have a smart phone, the google maps app is a god send.
@StarleishaG I agree with be vigilant, and honestly if you see a bunch of shady looking dudes just hanging around CROSS THE STREET. I can't tell people this enough and don't make eye contact, and no smiling at strangers if they are creeping you out, it only makes it worse.
Avoid entering secluded subway entrances after dark, especially in parts of midtown which get empty out of dark. Also try to avoid taking the train super late, if you have been partying/drinking, just spend the money on a cab, you'll be much happier you did. Try to stay in Manhattan if you can, don't be too tempted by cheap hotel deals outside of the city center.
I really think its worth acknowledging that this took place in the UK. Particularly in East London, which is pretty rough in some parts. I could be wrong, but I feel like some of the "bad" neighborhoods in London were kind of worse than the "bad" neighborhoods in NYC. I'm only speaking from MY experience, I don't travel much in the U.S., most of my my travel has been out of the country, I've never had major problems in NYC (Manhattan), where I live/work, save the occasional slick comment from from a worker, or dudes hanging outside homeless shelters.
I think the underlying racial tension and socioeconomic issues/class differences make this worse in Europe. The only times we've felt nervous, unsafe or have been blatantly gawked or menaced by black men has been in London, Stockholm, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Paris, and from black men in South and Central America and the Caribbean. These were usually workers, delivery men, dudes just sort of hanging around, etc. I think you really need to be careful when travelling especially if you don't speak the language or don't know the city too well.
"GUEST AUTHOR: THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH FOR WRITING THIS!I am disappointed (although not surprised) at Black America's defense of Jeantel. Why must we fervently defend every symbol of ineptitude, mediocrity and anti-social behavior?"
THANK YOU! Some of the things said by blacks to defend her as well as every white person who took a couple of courses in African-American studies in college is making me cringe. They don't realize it, but they are literally insulting poor black people and people who speak English as a second language by defending her. I'm so sick of the discussions of African-American Vernacular English, code-switching, speaking English as a second language, etc.
I know it stings hearing racists and self-hating blacks attack this woman, more so for her appearance than for her diction but some of the arguments people have been coming up with to counter this are cringe-inducing. Poor and working class black people don't live in caves with Tyler Perry Movies and gangster rap music videos on endless loop, they are well aware of what "white", or "proper" speech sounds like. They have tv's some even with (gasp) cable, they watch the news, movies, television shows. And people who speak English as a second language don't end up graduating high-school at 20, that really isn't typical.
I don't need to call her beautiful, I don't need to say I don't think she's that fat, her appearance has no bearing on her testimony. Like I said before she couldn’t have slipped in her skinny light-skinned body before heading to court that day. I don't think she did such a great job, but I don't think she represents a failing school system, a failure of whites and middle-class blacks to understand black speech, or what is wrong with American black women, she just represents herself. She isn't a political symbol. When Conrad Murray's wacky, skinny, lighter complected stripper baby mama made a fool of herself in court, I didn't see everyone rushing to her defense, maybe its because her boyfriend killed the king of pop, but still....
5 months, 1 week ago on Letter From a Reader: "Where Were Rachel Jeantel's People?!"
the more I've learned about disordered eating as it pertains to black women, the more I see that black dysfunction is fertile ground for all types of eating disorders/body dismorphia. I think there still isn't enough information out there because black women are assumed to be perfectly happy with our bodies all times. I feel like this could be a huge barrier to a woman seeking treatment/counseling for disordered eating.
5 months, 2 weeks ago on Is "Thinspiration" Dangerous for our Girls?
Pardon the armchair diagnoses, but I really, honestly, truly do believe this girl might be a bit slow. And that we are being way too hard on her, even the well-meaning people. I understand that there is a VERY loaded history attached to this which makes us uncomfortable if you so much as insinuate that this overweight, dark-skinned, black woman might be of lower intelligence, but it is what it is.
If it wasn't her speech patterns/accent, it would have been her body. From what I've read, quite a few people are cracking fat jokes, it's not like she could have slipped into her skinny body before heading into the courtroom. And if it wasn't her weight, it would have been her skin tone. You really cant win here.
On a side note, whenever I see situations like these, it reminds me of the contentious relationship I had with my mother growing up who was often very strict with me in terms of the way I presented myself, from my speech patterns (no AAVE or friends that had AAVE speech patterns), the music I listened to, my hair and nails (I wasn't allowed weaves, extensions or certain hairstyles or bright fake nails) and my weight/fitness (we ate fairly healthy and she made sure I was active). She was trying to spare me this kind of scrutiny, and I didn't truly realize it until I entered the workforce. But you can only spare a young black girl so much....
5 months, 2 weeks ago on Letter From a Reader: "Where Were Rachel Jeantel's People?!"
@Toni_M I know a lot of this relates to privilege, but I think its problematic to put a picture up of a real body in an article like this, because in a sense you are saying the body isn't "real", sort of like putting a picture up of a naturally light-skinned woman near an article about skin bleaching....
A few years ago an actual friend of mine who is a model had her picture posted on Jezebel in a post about fashion week. Some of the comments were so nasty, she's a very skinny East African girl, naturally from two skinny parents, I really felt upset for her, and she was annoyed when she found out.
I think in this thinspo discussion we forget we are looking at pictures of real people, and there is a big difference between saying this is unobtainable for YOU, and this is unobtainable PERIOD. Its problematic to use a picture to illustrate healthy or unhealthy, especially when we constantly let aesthetics creep into the conversation without realizing it (aka this LOOKS healthy and this doesn't).
"What the 'The Moxie Sophic' article does and, with all due respect, you often do is make the mistake of seeing every problem of black women, black male centered. True the interactions with black males in this area count among the most painful for black women. That said doing this you miss a lot of nuance and you miss the full scope of the problem and in the end risk making problems worse since the diagnosis is faulty and leads to an ineffective intervention making the situation worse."
As someone who exists in the "middle", I'm sad to say that my experiences with colorism have always been with women lighter than me, it was never really from black men. But my experience doesn't mean that fair-skinned black women are solely to blame for colorism, its black men, its black women, its everyone, its culture, its media, its complicated.
5 months, 2 weeks ago on Dark Girls Documentary Hits Home For Some
@Bellatrix79 the trend towards more model-type women, i.e. actual major agency models started in the late 90's when rap wanted to be super high end. Remember the Jay-z/Pharrell video "change clothes"? Russell Simmons was a known modelizer even before then. Its just that yet again delusional black women ignored this and insisted they were the exception to this sort of beauty standard. its false. The girl that looks like Naomi 2.0 is making more money and getting higher level work/better treatment than Twerkina McTwerky the stripper with "ass shots". Even if the former is dark-skinned and the latter light, its another dichotomy that often gets overlooked.
5 months, 3 weeks ago on Who Besides Me is Glad More White Chicks are Becoming Video H*es?
@Avoc42883 On a side note, pardon my rant....this is why I've actually actively discouraged black girls Ive worked with who want to be singers/dancers/entertainers/"models" (I put models in quotes because unless you are modeling with a major agency, you are going to have a hard time). Its harsh, but it needs to be done. You really aren't going to break any major barriers being a singer or an actress, there is a surplus of those. There are other opportunities within the entertainment/fashion industry where you can be more influential and make more money. I’ve actually observed girls missing days of work or school for the "privilege" of being on set for 12 hours, for a rate that works out to be below minimum wage all while being treated like crap.
We had a black woman win an Oscar for playing a maid and now 75 years later, we have..... a black woman winning an Oscar for playing a maid. That's supposed to be progress? We've just refined the Mammy.
There is a SERIOUS shortage of available black people to fill high level jobs in fashion/entertainment we have too many actors/models/dancers and not enough writers/editors/producers. /rant over.
@Aabaakawad @zipporah @Avoc42883 yep, because most of these jobs call for women only.
I'm glad, but I'm also going to be a bit of a negative Nancy, I think that unless we see videos that are 100% white women, not just the occasional token light-skinned girl or "ethnic" (Armenian, Persian, Italian) girl you will still have wilfully delusional black girls trying to be in videos, claiming there isn't a problem. Plus black girls add a level of "ratchet authenticity" you can't get from a white girl, (e.g. see Miley Cyrus' new video)
I haven't worked on a video in a few years now, and I pretty much avoid urban work like the plague, but in my observation, white girls were usually booked from agencies which set their rate in addition to agency fees. When there were more black girls around, light or dark they were usually booked through 3rd tier agencies, casting directors that mostly do hip-hop videos, low level casting sites, personal contacts and even Craigslist. The lower the level of casting/the smaller the budget, the more black girls. And they were usually paid less money, sometimes astonishingly low rates, like 50 bucks for 14 hours on set, for example. There was usually the occasional "Coco-T" type white girl, who also were on the lower end of things.
I hate to say it but as a result of how people were booked, usually the white models were more professional and easier to work with.
A big part of the "video ho" situation is that black girls trying to be in videos/entertainment far exceeds the 12% that we make up of the population, and on top of that slots are limited. So they get taken for granted and ran through like a box of tissues. Until that stops, I don't see the video-ho situation changing. Because in general, the more low-budget, ratchet, BET Uncut-ish the video is, the more black girls it has in it and there are always plenty lining up to be in the video.
whooo, at this point my belly is so full of popcorn I'm about to explode, at last it's the kind with no butter or added salt.....
Anyways, I think it comes down to this. People keep countering this post with this myth of "choice". I choose not to get married. I choose to raise my children alone. I choose to be in tons of student loan debt. I choose to live paycheck to paycheck. I choose to not have a suitable mate with which I can raise my kids.
If a "choice" is made out of necessity and self-preservation, is it really a choice? If its the only viable option, is it really a choice?
Were responsible, attractive men knocking down your door trying to marry you and raise kids with you? Is there a long list of jobs out there which require no education or experience just begging to hire you?
On another note, there is no "quick fix" for black dysfunction. A few years ago it was buying a home, before that it was nursing school, now it's get a degree, any degree. We keep doing these things in droves, but the problems just keep piling up.....
6 months ago on Black Women Are Spending Too Much Time and Effort Going to School, They Should Be Spending That Time Trying to Get Married
First of all, LOL at "Sister Christlo Dollar’s Play in the Snow and Blessings Will Flow Gospel"
anyways, le sigh. this again. I didn't see the original facebook post, but based on past posts I've seen here about weight I doubt it was that that shocking or offensive, just truthful, I'm assuming?
Anyways, this might be an unpopular opinion, but for me personally, I don't care that White Women are fat too, I don't care that most of the country is fat too, I also don't care that Black men are fat too either. Because I'm not seeking to be just like anyone else, I'm seeking to be better, that's how you get ahead. Black women are the exception to the rule, in that we get judged more harshly, not the other way around.
Unfortunately for women, physical attractiveness is expected along side intelligence. A college degree, or degrees is just part of the package, It's not fair, but it is what it is. We've had overweight or obese posters insist that their life is perfectly fine, including one poster claiming to weigh around 400lbs, I don't believe you. I've spent enough time in elite/exclusive spaces and have plenty of friends that work and play in them too, one thing I've never seen, and I say that with no exaggeration, is a significantly overweight or obese woman (or man actually), even the senior level women in their 40's, 50's and 60's in professional circles I've been in, are usually somewhat toned and in decent shape though obviously they don't have the bodies of 22 year olds, nor should they be expected to.
If you see the sort of comments and reactions that being a thin/fit black woman elicits, you'll know we are a force to be reckoned with. I know we come in all shapes and sizes, but NOTHING on this earth beats the body type of a thin or fit black woman, nothing, seriously we really do have amazing shapes, I've seen the most amazing bodies ever on black models and actresses I've worked with.
Fat acceptance, as far as I'm concerned was never created for women of color, its basically for white women by white women, and honestly they can have it. At the end of the day its about increasing your odds, I'm not interested in hedging my bets on being the exception to the rule....
6 months, 2 weeks ago on Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way: BB&W Is NOT Just a Swirling Club.
@Butterfly1010 I honestly couldn't be less interested in that movie, and this goes back to my original point. There are are a WEALTH of marriageable men in Hollywood, not just the obvious actors, athletes, musicians, etc, but Agents, Lawyers, Bookers, Money Managers, Real Estate Brokers, Insurance Brokers, Producers, Directors, Doctors, Surgeons, Dentists, Car Dealers, Club Owners, Restaurant Owners, Boutique Owners, Contractors, Architects and all types of consultants.
As for women like Eve, if they aren't apologizing they are out there trying to claim how tough their man or how good he is in bed.
I remember this pretty black actress on VH1 (Denis Vasi) was being clowned for dating a white club owner because he was older and balding, she married a white video director and now the peanut gallery points out he's not tall. Should she be chasing after ball players and rappers until she's 50, disappears and the next we hear of her is when she dies, gets her people magazine cover and leaves her money to the white man she quietly married when she thought the coast was clear?
6 months, 2 weeks ago on Why Would You Date or Marry a Known Racist?
@Butterfly1010 I'm happy for your friends but the problem isn't preferences/skin color, its the assumption that a certain factor makes a man "safe" while others don't. Hell there are a lot of "professional/educated" men whose salaries go right up their noses every weekend here in NYC (trust me).
I mean look at the thread about dating Asian men. Or the resistance some women have to dating older men (which I'm convinced for some comes from a fear of what others will say). I really think that sometimes women let blackistan creep into their dating preferences/choices and don't even realize it.