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@knowtheoffers Not all of the reviews have been golden.  Google search results show the consensus is: mixed bag.

1 year ago on DMS Reviews & Roadmap

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@Mictlan @x3mgroup Pagelines is heavily reliant on Bootstrap to do most of the visual design.  If you search for that, you'll start seeing a lot of similarities with other themes that utilize it as well.  There are html5 templates for around $10-30 that look exactly like DMS (minus some very minor font/color/styling stuff).  Even looks like some of the "premium"themes in the store are using large pieces of other common templates.

It's telling that on the Pagelines homepage, of the features listed none highlight any design possibilities with DMS.  It's just a Bootstrap template, which shows various screen caps of the store and the stock WP admin back-end.

If you're looking to mimic the core v2 Framework look, take a look at the free version of the Responsive theme.  I just converted a long gestating client site design done with Pagelines v2 to Responsive with the help of a WP custom html plug.  It looks very close, the client didn't even notice the change.  The custom css used was even about 30-40% less than the Framework version.  It doesn't have all the little bells and whistles, but it does include a fair amount of page templates and layouts for a free theme.

1 year ago on Coming back online…

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@mediumstudio Yes totally, they have boldly gone where every other major premium theme has already been.

1 year ago on Coming back online…

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@flidget 2 years?  Try 18 months.

1 year ago on Coming back online…

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@buddhatunes There was a similar problem with bbPress member profiles for a while with the previous version of this "theme".  Did those ever get fixed?

I'm also not seeing any included community integration "modules" for v3 DMS, so maybe it's no longer a feature after v2?

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Matthew01970 It's not business to put out new products and stop making old ones.

IT IS bad business to change the name of an existing product add a feature and tell all your existing customers to "f-off and pay us again for the whole thing over again... every time we make a slight change".

Front end editor is a feature, not something wholly different from Framework.  DMS actually has less developer options than Framework, yet it's more than double the price for existing developers.  The whole thing seems to hinge on whether you're going to buy their marketing terminology that this new "theme" is something different than other themes.  It's not.  You're either limited to a few stock Pagelines design options or you need to jump in with custom CSS... just like any other theme.  They just made a new fancy menu and put it in a different location.

BTW the editor feels more responsive on Opera than Chrome for OS X.  Don't know what they are smoking at PG, but apparently it's now the really high end stuff with that 2x+ pricing.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Lucas Garvin @redefiler @buddhatunes @MaxwellBoardman @peterluit You've got nothing better to do than chastise people complaining? Bash?

Well they also said another developer "tricked" them into seeing a preview copy just so they could copy DMS.  Turns out it was Andrew freely agreeing to show it off in order to woo another developer.  SInce then they'll cleaned the post entry a bit, but not the first time PG has cried wolf.

Bottom line: a lot of us have Pagelines sites.  They REALLY need to post the exact cause, because it's now our sites that are potentially vulnerable.  Considering the above, there's a fair amount of skepticism is warranted for PG official responses as of late.

Also here's what doesn't quite wash:

Hacked via plug-in... so.... switch hosts?  That's not really a hosting problem. 

More plausible might be the additional backend for DMS, was beyond the old host's capacity and PG only realized the problem when it attempted to go live.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@buddhatunes @John Petrowski I'd be curious if the audio player obfuscates links to local audio/mp3 files.  Since anything on Soundcloud is under freebee license, there is already a free WP Soundcloud player plug in that works pretty good for free material.

A paid player should offer some additional features, and if it's hoping to be a professional solution it should at least try to protect local audio files and assets.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@etc @Matthew01970  When people complain about Pagelines, you get personal, which kinda outs you as a not a very serious user. 

Pros care about tools, babies whine about feelings.

My offer to clean up your avatar graphic still stands.  I'll get rid of the artifacts on the background, fix the washed out gray on your shirt, pump up those white trim details, etc.  It would be a general improvement, when you're looking all sharp it might even help your confidence.  

$300 "friend" price, if you send a higher res copy, I can work off that, and you even get nice picture of yourself that you could give to your mom or someone special.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@buddhatunes @MaxwellBoardman @peterluit Postponing the launch a week would have probably been smarter and more responsible.

They claim they were hacked, but I dunno, Pagelines has a recent history of whine and blame the "competition" for trivial or imaginary offenses.  Either they did get hacked, or it's a cover for a totally bungled launch.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@etc @redefiler  Seems like I've been getting a piece of email every other day from Pagelines, very likely they wanted a response/reaction to their efforts.  Whatever emotions & gender confusions you're feeling are entirely your own.  Enjoy.

As I've explained, when v2 came out many of the v1 customers were complaining about similar things.  While I missed the   grandfather cutoff before, I didn't really know the situation that well and bought v2.  I wish I hadn't because those few complainers were absolutely correct, this wasn't Pagelines growing pains, it was just lame company practice repeated with every release.  So my experiences might help someone considering v3 or maybe even down the road on v4 when Pagelines does the same again.  It's a minor to major pain for any existing customers, and anyone considering upgrading might want to square some of the same concerns before spending cash.

So there's nothing to the Developer package except unlimited/multi-site support?  No Vanilla or bbPress style integrations?  No additional styling/editing tools?  Just the same stuff in the freebee?  Still sounds like a more expensive downgrade with some fiddle knobs for the noobz.  The freebee doesn't really do much without having to use custom CSS, so I'm wondering where the value is on the more expensive plans?  It just buys you less across multiple sites?

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@arpowers @William Soenksen You're not getting yelled at for creating great products.  You're getting yelled at for rebranding products, obscuring details and limitations with insipid marketing, more than doubling the prices, zero customer upgradability, and crying victim every time you screw something up.  

You've gotten plenty of money from your customers in the past, you've crowed about how adopted Framework v2 was, so however you've screwed up your business is really just your problem Andrew.  Just like the server crashes, and other developers not wanting to work with you.  There's no conspiracy beyond Pagelines own problems.  From what I see, Pagelines advantage was styling, and you've let it slip in favor of excessive monetization schemes.

So get to work... fix those horrible left and right margins on your site (which look ever worse on tablets), fix those stupid oblong video boxes on the front page, clean up all the typos, deliver some actual product/plan specifics, and figure out how to cut your existing customers a break on your massive price increases.  Asking for more, while delivering less is really pathetic.  

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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So... still no specific details on Business vs. Developer.   Pure incompetence Pagelines.  DMS = Deceptive Marketing Strategy.

Keep up the bad work, and thanks for zero customer loyalty and upgradability.  Every upgrade pulling the same shady marketing garbage.

DMS is mostly just new limitations and restrictions on the same v2 framework.  I'm also surprised at how thin the style options are, I guess the idea is to re-sell you a framework and then cripple it just enough to make the overpriced additional PG store themes attractive.  Kinda like selling you a box of Legos, but with no Legos inside except three pieces glued together.  

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@nphaskins @knowtheoffers Last week, $8 a month also got you the previous version developer edition, now you only get the feature limited lite version. Steep value dive.

If Pagelines was offering DMS and maid service to clean my place for $100 a month then maybe ok.  A maid will clean the bathroom, Pagelines is skinning a freeware cms.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@nphaskins @redefiler So you've got no real response, don't speak for Pagelines, but show up and try to anyways?

Besides I can do to things at once: shop for themes and complain about having to shop for themes.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@knowtheoffers @mattmatt I suppose they will be going over the theme vs DMS verbiage in further detail.  I'm not watching live, so far I got it... its just the in-app purchase theme.  DMS customers better make sure their children don't rack up thousands thru unsupervised in-app shopping.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@nphaskins @redefiler It won't be compatible with any new roads.  Jeep won't service it, the manufacturer's warranty is extremely limited, they won't even answer the support line unless you buy the new version...

There's no way anyone can realistically use v2 going forward, be crazy to build new sites on it.  Twenty Eleven is now a more viable option. 

I dunno,  I'd think you'd want existing customers to have a little more discretionary spending for your a la carte $60 DMS theme in the PG Store.  You seem to forget this is 2x the upgrade cost, that's universal suckage in any industry.

The lowest package costs what the developer version costs 18 months ago, yet it's severely feature crippled.  It's bad for for both pros and schmoes.  

I still can't believe there's no detailed info on the upper priced subscriptions.  Unreal.  Didn't anyone think that might be important?  Then with the server "hack", its seems kinda bumbling to reward with 2x loyalty. Where's the return love?  Open-source cripple ware? That's a theme advertisement, the demo copy.


1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Matthew01970 That's because you paid for v1 which was a theme, then because v2 was a framework you had to re-buy because it was totally different than a theme, and now you have to re-buy v3 because it's a dms that's totally different than a framework and a theme.  Get it?

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@nphaskins @Brenden Well they are charging more than 2x for developers on this latest upgrade.  They are also EOL'ing the previous model, so its like that 2011 Jeep that now won't drive on roads now.  I believe that would also create some interesting customer reactions, when Jeep said tough luck, buy a 2012... and now it's double the price, pay us every 30 days.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Dannyh @redefiler Are you thinking of MAMP PRO, I'm just running MAMP.  Don't see any General under Server in the menubar.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@Dannyh @redefiler Nothing exotic, stock MAMP local WP config, fresh copy of Chrome, no plugs. 

Start Servers when starting MAMP: check

Stop Servers when quiting MAMP: check

Check for MAMP PRO when starting MAMP: check

Open page at startup: /MAMP/

Apache port: 8888

MySQL Port: 8889

PHP v5.4.10

Cache: XCache


1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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 @Dannyh @redefiler @ginoginelli MAMP, it was very obvious when clicking to add sections, and between the different categories.  Sometimes the drag-n-drop takes more than a few seconds to react and then forgets you were trying to drag in an element, so you got to try again.  It seems a little too picky about moving modules into position, like the hot zones are too sensitive.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@ginoginelli @redefiler @mikkelbreum Local install and no add-ons in Chrome, tough guy.  Maybe DMS periodically calls to the Pagelines server in the background which has been troubled recently?  But it's more likely because it's pushing the upper limits of dynamic javascript bells and whistles in Chrome.

Got any other tips from the Genius Bar?


1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@schnnmbr @redefiler

#2 It's an extra step, that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't.  Seems like an easy thing to fix or implement in an upgrade.

#3 I agree and wish I could design in the more relevant browsers.  Lack of Firefox is extremely disappointing, as it's still the work horse browser.  Will try Opera and see.  IE still has the majority or users, and easily 90% of site visitors who buys stuff in site stores are on Safari.

#4 I would agree with you, but how many blog posts are there to explain why DMS isn't a theme?  There's even a video or two of Andrew talking about it.   It seems like customers knowing they are paying more for a DMS vs a theme is more important than what the actual features are.

#4B The server hack comes after some highly dubious claims about "the competition" going to outlandish attempts to hurt Pagelines.  I saw more claims today while their server went poop.  I think it's suspiciously childish on their part, but I also think it's very important that we know of any catastrophic vulnerabilities in plug-ins so our own Pagelines sites don't go kablooie.

#5 It's a lot of work instead of a module called "header banner".  It's a weird omission, the sliders and highlight boxers are cool eye candy, but its all for not without simple header branding. 

#7 Yes design is subjective, background color is very obvious, should work better than it does.  Page 1 and I'm going to custom CSS for a solid background on a "revolutionary drag-n-drop Design Management System".  It's not a big deal to code for, but it's a big deal to miss when you're trying to "revolutionize design".

#8 Yes subjective, but I think it's definitely a mismatch, and seems like a shortcut.  Maybe there's a developer feature that fixes it, again they aren't explaining that.

#9 Yes it could be an add-on, could have been a new feature, but it's not.

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The h1, h2 is pretty basic CSS code, but isn't that also a basic item for a "revolutionary design management system"?  Seems like it's something that effects 100% of sites, where Masthead sections are in the minority.  The only reasons I see leaving it out, either they missed it or they plan to monetize that functionality later a la carte thru the store.

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@mikkelbreum  @redefiler  Correct.  I have been a longtime notoriously aggressive Pagelines premium developer since V1.  Pagelines has indeed been horribly wounded each time I've viciously hurled cash at them.  This might be useful to keep in mind, if you care to read thru the my easily searchable week or two history of comments and specific concerns here about DMS.

Dispatching this/you quickly...

1) Might be fast for a "front-end" editor, but it still suffers from lag and clunk.  It also splits editing between the actual post/page content, and another separate window for any UI changes, plus as I stated the DMS editor makes it hard to preview and edit in the same window, so a third is needed to get an unobstructed page preview.  You can do things differently: true.  You can do things quicker: that's highly debatable.

2) Publish button sometimes says it needs to refresh the page when changing certain items, sometimes not.  Why doesn't it just do it every time?

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Now back to my original list...

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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The new Rev Slider looks great.

The menu consolidation is definitely an improvement.

However…

1. Big problem with the drag n drop editor... it's way too clunky, occupying a huge amount of space, almost totally obscuring the areas you'd want to drag-n-drop to.  It actually makes it harder to see what's going on, rather than having two side-by-side windows  or tabs for backend and previewing.

2. Publish button doesn't refresh the page?  it's a total waste of time to publish, only to have to refresh again to see the changes.  Can't you guys just make it auto-referesh on publish (or at least provide the option)?

3. Interface is really slow.  I'm guessing you went proprietary with Chrome, because it gave you a slight boost from unusable to merely painful.  I think it was a bad call, whatever UI speed boost you think you're getting, it isn't overcoming the fact DMS is sluggish.  The back and forth between the real WP backend and DMS editor is a real pain too.

4.  There are absolutely no specifics given anywhere for differences between the subscription tiers!  WTF?

5. There's no way to add links to images in the media section.  Is this a pro feature?  Who knows?  Surprising lack of link-ability with many of the modules/sections/whatever.

6. There's no good way to add a logo banner to the header beyond the laughable stupid 29px high tiny pic in a nav-bar.  9/10 clients want their name/logo/brand big and first, Pagelines default approach here is really goofy.

7. The white space at the bottom of the Feature page is horribly ugly.  Why break up the background for no good reason in the footer?  Why is the background color being ignored?   Is this a biz or dev feature?  Again, who knows... 

8. Those dropdown menus in the nav-bar are perhaps the worst theme menu design I've seen in years.  Are those supposed to be cartoon bubbles? Why don't they have any style similarity to the nav menu?  Horrid.

9. Same exact social button options as Framework v2.  Would it have killed you guys to add a few new ones?  Not like there isn't horizontal space in the social bar.

10. The price increases suck:

          - v2 Deveoper édition for existing dev customers:          $175 / 18 months

          -  v3 Developer edition with 10% "launch" discount:      $432 / 18 months

          - DMS cost increase over 18 months:                             $257 (higher if DMS lasts longer as a Framework/Theme)


Further, Pagelines is now essentially charging Personal customers the previous version Developer price.

         - v3 DMS Personal:                                                         $10/month ($8 now on 10% "launch sale")

          - v2 Framework Developer:                                             $9.7/month ($175 divided by 18 month life of product)


Not only are digging deeper on the developers, but there's a serious drop in value for the Personal plan cost.

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Further:

- Pagelines spent all their pre-launch time waxing poetically about theme terminology and "changing the game" clichés a la Jerry Maguire.

- Pagelines provides no specific information about what Developer edition tools envolve, which sections are available to business vs developer plans.

- They offered and agreed to show another theme dev a pre-release copy of their theme, then blog about how they were "tricked" because the "competition" is "so out to get them"

- DMS Launch day kerplodes, first Andrew claims it was hacked at 3am, then 11pm earlier that night, with plenty of "competition" out-to-get-them musings (including emails) thru-out the day.

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So are you guys lying this time, whiffed it and blaming the competition boogeyman, or did you really get hacked?  With DMS and a specific plug?  Maybe let us know which plug to avoid when using DMS?  Seems kinda important, you know after all the launch day trouble, might even help credibility on the "dev who cries wolf" suspicions?


All in all, aside from the broken stuff, DMS is kind of a mess.  There's no way it's remotely ready for any of my sites or to help workflows.  It's also a lot more expensive, and I'm not seeing a hugely better end result.  Worse it seems like a way to charge me to learn and accept an atypical and clunky new methodology.  I'm still stuck dealing with a lot of css for font stuff. Why isn't the H1, H2, H3, text styling available to edit in the Typography menu?  Rrrrrggggg.   

I'm wondering if the traditional Wordpress theming model is quicker and more direct than having a visual editor.  I'd appreciate making it smoother, but I think with v3 the training wheels are more just getting in the way.  A lot of special hoops to jump through, and still need to do a good amount of custom coding and fiddling (apart from and in addition to typical Wordpress backend configurations).

1 year ago on Your DMS awaits.

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@nphaskins @redefiler I don't know you personally, I just take issue with some of the dumb stuff you've been saying.  I certainly don't post on every silly thing you say, just a very select few.

AND... sInce you seem to be the official Pagelines attack dog for disappointing news about the DMS theme, it's merely a  community service in pointing out your inherent paid bias.  Try not to take it personally.

1 year, 1 month ago on What competitors think about DMS

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@dirtgirl Sounds like Andrew is just acting out his feelings of rejection. 

 I'm feeling like I won't be paying $300+ for the DMS theme to cover the staff counseling costs. 

1 year, 1 month ago on What competitors think about DMS

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@nphaskins You are a paid Pagelines developer dissing another theme developer that didn't want to partner with Pagelines.

Your Integrity Score: 0

1 year, 1 month ago on What competitors think about DMS

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@arpowers @nuonical22 Sounds like he didn't trick you.  He asked for a look, and you agreed.  Your spin is either 100% dishonest or you are unaware of reality.

BTW, you are not getting flack over keeping product details "close to the chest".  You are getting flack for the details you have leaked: like the cost/hassle increase, lake of upgradability from v2, limited browser support, and advertising old features like they are somehow new because you changed the product name.

Now you're getting flack for infantile posts like this.  It's become Pagelines v3: Amateur Hour.


1 year, 1 month ago on What competitors think about DMS

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@nphaskins @flidget Planting flowers doesn't do anything to help me design sites.  While this is a negative cost/hassle increase for customers, as a paid framework module dev you'll be making more money at our expense.  I think PG and people like you need to do a better job explaining why you're pulling out the rug again, before more of your obnoxious paid cheerleading.   

You've got a conflict of interest, buddy.  Consider piping down about negative consumer reactions to your business practices, and working to handle those with more than empty words.

1 year, 1 month ago on The problem with themes…

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@flidget Well it's because you just aren't seeing the value of using Pagelines and the revolutionary premium theme... 

that's not a theme... 

but a DMS... 

which allows you to buy themes from Pagelines!

What's not to like?  Each abstract descriptive layer is an opportunity for you to give more money to Pagelines.  You wouldn't want to be caught using one of those difficult 'themes', so you'll need a Pagelines premium theme DMS and buy some exclusive premium themes.

Though I kinda wish Pagelines would spend more time making nice looking design stuff, and lose the repugnant exaggeration of increased monetization scheming as a civic service.

Oh yeah... dev tools and drag-n-drop will now be chrome only.  Way to go, super coders.

1 year, 1 month ago on The problem with themes…

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Import AND export for site settings?

Doesn't v2 already have this feature?

1 year, 1 month ago on The problem with themes…

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@etc @redefiler Above the left shoulder, on your avatar, you don't see the orange shape?  Looks like an artifact of some kind on the background.  The healing brush in Photoshop is a very cool tool for stuff like that.  

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@etc @redefiler Yes, you're quite the popular chap, and quite the aficionado of "rhetorical wit"!  Though I've  decided I don't like your avatar.  I wonder if that makes me a bad person.  Its mostly the orange artifacts above your left shoulder, little around the hand.  Have you tried using the healing brush in Photoshop to clean that up?  It will look way better on your Pagelines sites, you'll really tear up those comments in style.

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@etc @redefiler I didn't ask, and Christian Mingle or a site like that, might be a much better outlet for your online gestures. 

Smaller than some, bigger than others, such is life.   Clearly you're no Steve Jobs, but more importantly, Pagelines is the one posting here about revenue issues.

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@jancaynes @redefiler @webranger1962 Depends, but when does the economy of scale kick in?  Supposedly Pagelines is used by hundreds of thousands of site, certainly more than when I started out on this ride.  Even fancy shiny iPhones have gotten cheaper from the $499 original subsidized price.  Additionally, I don't have to redo everything when I get the next product.  

Pagelines has new features and they expect $ for those: No problem, cant wait to see them

Pagelines has new features and wants even more than they did initially (x2): Hmmm ok, better be good, lets see it.

Pagelines has new features, wants more and also recurring monthly fees: I'm starting to get a bad feeling about this.

Pagelines has new features, wants more, + monthly recurring charges, and you'll have to re-do everything: Kinda sounds like they need a deep discount to lure me within a hundred miles of this.

Here's what Pagelines should do to make this right:

Meaningful discount for existing customers. (Pay us back a little for loyalty and re-do suffering,  but we're still paying back for new features and their work)

+ optional subscription fees for premium support 

- required subscription fees for developer tools/editions (no weasel wording on what those involve)

 Beyond that, I'd like to hear that dev tools work in more than one browser, there by not breaking existing drag-n-drop functionality.  I'd like them to severely de-clutter the theme back-end, either dump or severely refine some of the screwball third party integrations, whatever they can do to speed up the backend (sluggish on even local installs) - though a back-end clean up would help speed up workflow significantly. 

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@etc @redefiler Well, its only taken 10 posts of re-explaining for you to catch up to speed with everyone.  Mission Accomplished!  Hopefully PG heard it the first time, they are running out of time to handle this disaster.

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@etc @redefiler Ah, so its all about fanboy gotcha games.  You're still a tremendously poor substitute for customer relations.

Pagelines should be expecting these questions, not their first time pulling rugs, not their first time 'shifting business models'.   Pagelines has no platform to invest into, just a series of EOL'd one-off products.

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@jancaynes @redefiler @webranger1962 Well it seems they've got some fundamental problems and a history of fluctuating business models.  It's not surprising that there are customer support issues.  

Last time they offered a small window of discounts before the v2 rebranded Framework shipped, I bought in without seeing anything other than these kind of fluff, hype announcements.  

I don't believe they are changing business models, I think the plan is to EOL products in name only after several months and largely rebrand to ding exisiting customers for the full hit.  The sight unseen discount pricing, is a  strategy to enable that.  I wonder if that's in the plan for this upgrade as well?

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@etc @redefiler  I don't think so, but your comprehension skills might not be as effective as you believe.  Is there gunk on your screen obscuring text?  Take all the time you need to ponder the meaning of it all.

BTW: You might have noticed, you're interaction has only adde fuel to the fire.  If you're on the inside of Pagelines, or casually affiliated, they'd be doing themselves a huge favor to put some distance between themselves and you.

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@etc @jancaynes @musicman75 Maybe it was a public notice, for more than your own attention and benefit?  

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@jancaynes @redefiler @webranger1962 Ouch.  I've had a few questions answered in the regular forum pretty quickly, but I've also seen a good amount of "go find it yourself with Firebug" when  looking thru topics.  I assumed that the premium support would be a little more responsive and hands on.

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@nphaskins @redefiler @flidget lol, small time. 

Many corporations and institutions can't use clients like gmail because they need to retain internal control over IP and correspondence.  Email lives on their own servers or thru approved mail hosting partners.  I know specifically in the case of electronics manufacturers, this is a requirement for certifications and vendor approval processes. it's true for both domestically and with international companies.


1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@etc @redefiler Nobody needs clarification on what a subscription means.

I think I'll wait to hear responses to my concerns directly from Pagelines, rather than engage in protracted semantics with irrational and emotional surrogates.

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@etc @redefiler @TampaGreg Your car analog was a retort based on an incorrect insinuation of how I was using the word 'own' and a total disregard for my context.  So rather than invest time into explaining what's wrong with your undoubtedly 'perfect' analogy for subscription models, let's just say we were/are having some reception difficulties.

On your note:  No, I don't have bumbling lummoxes for clients, that's a silly assumption to make.  I have clients with a wide variety of specialities and professions outside of 'website stuff'.  Many people delegate and outsource tasks like web design, they have limited time and attention for the minutia of slapping text and pics on a screen.  Clearly your experience is limited to clients with a deeper than average appreciation.  Unfortunately some of us have to venture out past the gates of Nerdland into the wilderness and try to communicate with the average person.  Unpleasant, I know, but I gots billz yo.

Bummer on Chrome only.  Highly dynamic js interface bummer or limited developer resources bummer?  I'd bet the later, cause special interface browser specific code way sucks, so i doubt they'd shoot themselves in the foot like that.  

I'm sure your a swell guy, but I'd check the thread, you've kinda come off as bit arrogant and petty. Maybe try learning to live with disagreement?  Or perhaps you disagree?


1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@nphaskins @flidget You might be surprised to learn that many people have their own mail hosting associated with their domains.  That's the preferred and vastly more popular way 'people who've been on the internet for many years' have been doing it.

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@nphaskins @redefiler @etc @TampaGreg I try to use words like 'think' 'speculate' 'I'm guessing' to indicate when I don't know for sure, that's kinda what those specific words are for.  I am holding out to see what the announcements are, the ones so far, in my opinion... have not been that impressive.

So far I've learned that there's a free free upgrade, and that there's a new hurdle for the paid developer versions.  For me, one of the lowly paying suckers, there have just been announced barriers to entry, no actual features.  I'm also a little weary from past experience and impressions, which I previously explained.  

I could be wrong:

-Everything could be awesome and new, no re-paying full price for mostly the same features rebranded

-The subscription cost could be somewhat or substantially cheaper than the current developer package

-The monthly subscription payments could be a joy for all my clients.

I suppose ( <--see how that works) we're both eagerly waiting to learn more. 

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@jancaynes @webranger1962 I forgot about that.  You're talking about the monthly support plan they introduced after the Platform launch?  Why did you feel support was marginal?

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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@etc @redefiler @TampaGreg  There is no value proposition here yet, just what feels like a sneaky subscription pricing model change.  You'll forgive my inability to fully appreciate the "innovative" thinking behind the letters DMS, and why this acronym will bless my heart with sunshine and drive me to fling cash towards it with abandon.

The hassle is not the cost, the hassle is the recurring charging.  I'm already paying developer prices, bringing Pagelines a few more clients, who now have to account for a monthly payment.  That's a "techy" hassle and now a whole new thing I gotta explain to non-"techy" people.  Its a quoting hassle for new clients, and it makes for more slop in the website mess I'm trying to make easy and sell to them.  

I'm well aware I can use 3rd party alternatives.  I'm also well aware I'm already 2x invested into this one.  I'm guessing Pagelines wants a 3x, and likely a substantial increase in $ for similar end functionality.  I'm speculating they are deciding to split that cost into monthly chunks to distract from a significant price increase.  There's no other good business reason for them to not ask for one burst.

Your car analogy is flawed.  I never meant literally 'own', I used my significant x-man powers to imagine the likely reaction of several clients, not to mention future potential clients.  I think that was clear in my post, but if you weren't merely trying to be 'cute' with your response, this new detail might help you better understand after a re-read.

Also, did I read that you have to use Chrome to run the developer edition tools?  Is that for all customization?  If that's the case and Safari support isn't available at launch, subscription model withstanding, sorry bro... no sale.

1 year, 1 month ago on Why DMS will be open source.

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