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@fan101 There wasnt a big gripe about Avengers because each character had strengths and weaknesses shown throughout. Captain America and Black Widow showed fatigue as they tried to clear Wall Street, Tony Stark almost died when he guided the missile into the portal. Then there was the villain Loki who was obviously rattled by Hulk as he was thrashed about like a rag doll. Plus New York wasnt atomized by a needless world engine. There was an attempt by the heroes to contain the fight in one square area to minimalize casulties. MOS didnt operate that way it was biggest explosions and super powered beings that showed no fatique or injury as they foguht each other. There was no real investment or worry for Superman as he was pummeled because he showed no such physical vulnerability that and everything was shown out of focus it was hard to make out exactly what was going on.
4 months, 2 weeks ago on Why Man of Steel is receiving bad reviews and the public loves this Superman
@Thatguy12345 Who fraking cares if my picks came after 1986? I never said I was against the character after that period. I simply said there are some good stories out there with Superman as he should be a man of the people doing good for goodness sake. The decade of the 90's almost ruined him, that was the decade I detested and most of the picks of yours were just gimmick stories that while entertaining had lil to no substance or portrayed the character like he should be. The early 2000's also had some wild and crazy ideas that were just wrong or misguided Jim Lee's For Tomorrow is one of them another one comes to mind is Terry austin's Action run. Superman didnt really become great again until Johns took over Action and Grant wrote the great All Star. As for definitive version of the character there is one and it's usually the silver or bronze age version because no matter how ma reboots or dropped plotlines everything eventually circles bac to those ideals and morals
@Thatguy12345 @trans8010 @rosslunney Ummmm I was born in 1987, my first Superman comic was Doomsday! aka Death of Superman. So your attempts to throw me for a fool were futile. Also by throwing books currently being plugged by DC and their New52 stance along with Red Son, Secret Origins, and Birthright. Birthright is usually to be the definitive origin story with most fans and is a crowd pleaser, Waid clearly knows the character and tries his hardest to do justice to Superman. Mark Waid was also among the very celeb talents that disliked MOS. Secret Origins tries to be birthright but comes across as a tedious redo by Geoff Johns who at the time was remaking Superman and restored many of the silver age elements, it was entertaining but a bit unneccesary. The Death and Return of Superman are good reads as well but are not definitive versions of the character either. For Tomorrow is a terrible read it goes nowhere real fast and has a anticlimatic conclusion. The covers were nice though. Earth One is can obvious push to gain younger readers by creating abn origin story that is relatable to those emo youngsters, it's decent but not a favorite. Red Son is an elseworlds tale and not one that should have been included here. If you want great Superman stories besides Birthright I would reccommend Superman Sandman Saga, Superman in the Sixties, Superman Vs. The Flash, Superman: For the Man who has Everything, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, Man of Steel, All Star Superman, Last Son, Brainiac, and Action 775.
@Thatguy12345 @trans8010 @jmaldo85 @Juano Guzman
Any General would brave the atmospheric pressures if it meant more power to best his opponent, even then as his body adapted to the changes forced on him in the climatic final battle. Kal was shown to have been in pain as he struggled to breathe as an infant, and how each power caused him pain and confusion as they manifested yet with Zod there was only pain in that brief moment when his armor as shattered in Smallville, during the fight in Metropolis the pain was suddenly gone. That comment now contridicts itself in hindsight since obviously the atmospheric changes only affect infants and young children in such a brutal fashion.
@Thatguy12345 @trans8010 @jmaldo85 @Juano Guzman It wasnt the world, he was making his way due north through Canada and the arctic. That's following what came before it, the original comic character trekked the world learning about humanity in all cultures because he knew once he was ready he would be a man of the people all people from all walks of life. I was expecting at long last THAT film to be made, so there's one of my disappointments with this film he just goes back to Kansas. Which from a literary point of view doesnt add to the plot or anything yes he goes back home that's nice and natural which is something I didnt mind, however what does he do there? Washes dishes and watches football and talks about some girl he saved from sentry robots. Where's the reflection of time lost between a mother and her son? There were apart ten years and that's the way Goyer and Snyder decided to handle their reunion? Where's the cool stories he could tell to her about his journey, the opportunity to save a dying family from a flaming car wreck, or twarting a simple hold up from a trade mart or something. Add some bits of characterization about how he wants something more than just to be a Superman, these scenes would have helped the development of this character in the present and maybe we could have had a nice lil action scene told via flashback. Instead we had a potential bonding scene wasted.
@rosslunney @trans8010 @Contrabardus My comment had nothing to do whether a successful film made a lot of money but was critically panned or if a critically acclaimed film makes no money and their merits on whether or not that's what makes a hit or flop. I simply said had the public been so in love with Man of Steel like everyone claims on RT and metacritic then it should have at least kept the top spot the next week or at least made more than a buddy cop film that appeals to a very niche audience and a Pixar sequel from a film that could very well be the black sheep of the catalog, It didnt.
My point stands Man of Steel simply did not have the great word of mouth to influence a stronger second weekend. All that money made in week 1 only tells me that those who saw it simply paid for a ticket not if they enjoyed the picture. It doesnt matter if there's strong competition from other films if a film itself is good and the audience itself thinks it's good they will go out of their way to support it. Well the support asnt there.
The theater in my area the views were polarizing. There were some that thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread and the other portion mainly families and older senior citizens (they were there) who considered it a betrayal to the source material. In fact after the lights went back up there was a kid one row down from me, the lights go up he stands and claps trying to start an applause. Every person in the surrounding area just turns and looks at him with puzzlement. That was Man of Steel in my area.
5 months, 2 weeks ago on Why Man of Steel is receiving bad reviews and the public loves this Superman
@jmaldo85 @trans8010 @Contrabardus @rosslunney No the christ alligory came from the films. His origins were heavily based from the book of exodus and the stories of Moses feeing the israelites. Siegel and Shuster were jewish they wouldnt have used New Testament scripture in their tales.
I'm sorry but not immediately going out to fight evil because Clark still had to figure out humanity is a ploy to excuse Goyer's bad writing. At ths point he's lived amongest us for 33 years. You are telling me in all that time he not once read a history book, or saw a movie or even talked to people and seen something other than darkness?
All throughout the film you see or hear about Clark saving people throught out his trek across Canada, the oil platform, the guardian angel bit Lois immediately latches on to, even saving a bus load of children in his youth, yet that all stops after he puts on the suit. Why?
Clark obviously has had the capacity to do good or else he wouldnt have even attempted such acts of kindness and heroism. At this point he's figured out humanity. Their capabilities and their passion for good. The world may be a dark place right now but the overall populace isnt. He should have known that.
5 months, 3 weeks ago on Why Man of Steel is receiving bad reviews and the public loves this Superman
@jmaldo85 @trans8010 @Juano Guzman No you are missing the point, it's not what happened it's why it had to happen to begin with.
There you go throwing up banter on the original Superman film that while I enjoyed, did not ever in recent weeks resort to comparison. Yet that seems to be all that you are focusing on. You say that Superman flying up from nowhere catching Lois Lane and flying off with a cheering crowd made no sense? How? His exposure wasnt about acceptance it was about doing good for goodness sake, he saw he needed to help someone in peril and literally jumped at the chance. The public responed well to him because he came out of nowhere to save one person. That spoke volumes about this guy. He's not just for important geological disasters, or vips this guy will show up to foil a bank robbery, save kittens from trees and save a person from falling. The public was openly trusting of this guy because they WANTED to trust him. If that hokey and unrealistic well guess what it's not supposed to be realistic. You seem to forget that Superman is a FANTASY! I cannot stress this enough.
MOS went a different route he was hiding for 33 years (augggh) only exposing himself to the world when Zod threatened to destroy it. He didnt go out of his way to help people or foil bank robberies after putting on that suit for the first time. It should have been after that scene pushing his limits flying for the fist time that he should have set out to help those in need. So when Superman was indeed exposed as that of kryptonian decent via Zod and his maniacal nature was known itself and he had to fight Zod to prove to us he's not like him I would accept the public trusting him a lot more because of his intial deeds.
Zod's endgame was illogical. Why terraform a planet, to mold it as a exact replica of Krypton if you had the knowledge of what such an atmosphere would do to your strength and prowess. They would all become like gods. All they needed to do was kill all humans and live on earth as it's sole inhabitants. The world engine was just unnecessary baggage written in to make big buildings tumble. Again why go this route to begin with when 3 or more kryptonian beings with the same strength and invulnerability factors should have been more than enough to engage viewers during the climax.
Why was Zod so pissed at Jor-El to begin with? His hatred of him spawned from the fact he and Lara concieved a child naturally. The very thought of copulation sickened him. That's interesting and could very well be a compelling way for Zod to extract vengence on the house of El yet it wasnt the reason. His overall insurrection was about reinstating order to Krypton and removing all the laws and ideals that crippled the planet over the past few millenia, yet he had a problem with copulation and called it sacrilege? Why? A nice little explanation as to why that one rule would become reinstated in your new dystopia would really have explained that lil error.
@Juano Guzman For gods sake, if any of you bothered to read these reviews you would know it wasnt the action itself that critics complained about, it was how long and tedious the action scenes became and how Superman himself seemed to be more interested in causing more destruction than stopping the bad guys. Everyone expected mass destruction and chaos, that was never in question. The plot and characterizations were what critics mainly focused on.
@jmaldo85 @trans8010 @Contrabardus @rosslunney To hell there isnt. I'm sorry but there is christian symbolism in Superman the Movie. You are a fool if you cant see it. The writer Tom Mankiweicz has gone on repeatedly about this. He deliberately wrote Jor-El and Superman as parallels to God and Christ. Hell, even Zod was depicted as Satan. Look at the film again, christian symbolism and christ allogories are everywhere.
Jor-El banishes Zod from Krypton imprisoning him in the phantom zone for eternity. In biblical text God punished Satan by casting him from heaven and into Hell for eternity.
Kal-El's spaceship is in the form of a twinkling star, not unlike the Star of Bethlehem that signaled the arrivial of Christ.
Jor-El sends to earth his only son in hopes not just to save him from Krypton's fate but to save us from damnnation. He also instructs him that while he can live amongst the humans he mustn't be one of them that his destiny and message is more important than physical wants. How is that not different from Jesus?
"Live as one of them, Kal-El, to discover where your strength and power are needed. But always hold in your heart the pride of your special heritage. They can be a great people, Kal-El, and they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you, my only son."
Perhaps why you cannot see them yourself is because it comes across as subtle. So while you claim I have no understanding of Man of Steel you had NO understanding yourself on Superman the Movie.
As for what my grandfather said about the film. He understood completely that this wasnt a Superman film and that's why he didnt enjoy it. They never cared to properly develop the character into the hero that will become Superman in the first film. It had nothing to do with misunderstanding. That was Man of Steel's greatest flaw. You're telling me you have all these powers and you're not gonna fly out to save your father because he told you not to. That's BS, it really is, it's not compelling or heartwrenching, nor does Clark learn a lesson about trust, he was an idiot who watched his father die from a preventable situation.
The acting may have been fine but the writing was terrible. Using it's only part 1 as an excuse to ignore development is lazy and ignorant to the fans, and tells me the writers in charge have no idea who Superman is and chose to write a character that ISNT him in any way shape or form. This character lacks every trait even in his upbringing we didnt see Clark. The love story was also very tacked on, there was nothing about Lois that seemed necessary. Every scene she was in could have been done using a different character and there would have been little to nothing altered.
@Contrabardus @trans8010 @rosslunney So I missed two minor points about ticket prices but everything else is right on. The film couldnt hold it's umph after the first weekend and profits dipped. Also only the buddy cop film was crushed by MOS Monsters University steamrolled over MOS, so I'm not the only one trying to use false data. lol
Ok in all seriousness, the film didnt perform to Warner Bros. expectations, the word of mouth was sour, if the film was truly a great opus as many seem to think it should have kept climbing or held the no. 1 spot for at least another weekend. It didnt. Even Batman Begins a film also polarizing for fans kept the top spot longer and only dropped one spot per week and it had Star Wars and a (at the time) greatly anticipated Will Ferrell film as it's competition.
MOS may have scored high on RT or Metacritic but those ratings are misleading as well since they only rate those who use the site, which not everyone uses. So roughly HALF if that of the movie going public were represented. Superman is a timeless character the people in the theater when I saw it ranged from 8-70. I doubt those 70 year olds were immediately on RT to submit their scores. My father disliked the film as did my grandparents. They apreciated the balls on approach in the action but were greatly disappointed at how little the film tried to showcase the characters and plot.
I liked it, but I wasnt in love with it, I felt the human drama was there just not fleshed out properly, Cavill did a decent job as the title role, but Lois Lane, Perry White and many of the supporting cast had literally nothing to do but react to this or to exist solely to further the plot like Lois on the alien craft, no reason for her to really be there. They could have easily written the scene for Clark. The christ allogories were forced in with a spoon with no subtlety. The orignal film carried this notion with grace, you didnt need to see Christopher Reeve with his arms outstretched to get that he's a savior to humanity, he just saved people.
@rosslunney Those first weekend totals were misleading. It was revealed that almost half of those first weekend totals were IMAX screenings. Have you been to an IMAX showing tickets are in the 20-25 dollar price range depending on your area. That's more than half of a standard ticket. That less patrons than you think that actually saw this film. It couldnt even hold the top spot for more than one weekend losing to a buddy film staring Sandra Bullock and Monsters University. Why? Word of mouth poisoned the potential profits this film could have made. The film suffered in subsequent weeks. The film was not nearly as successful as box office totals would want you to believe.
5 months, 4 weeks ago on Why Man of Steel is receiving bad reviews and the public loves this Superman
@rosslunney No they dont. Superman has had everything unique stripped from him beginning in 1986. This current generation has no idea who Superman is. The current version is just another strongman the only thing unique is his massive set of powers and blue suit. Also not everyone has seen Smallville either so using that as a point of defense is just an excuse. I'm not saying let's remove that part entirely but use those scenes for something other than the same message over and over until Pa Kent dies. The codex also is a plot device and not a very good one. How will he be able to extract those cells from his DNA to create or give sentience to kryptonian beings? If there's no use for them rather than keeping Krypton alive is ato excuse his behavior. They are just cells within his body nothing more nothing less.
6 months ago on Why Man of Steel is receiving bad reviews and the public loves this Superman
@jwatkis @jJaay @sefy76 This wasnt like Batman Begins at all. Batman Begins was done as a stand alone film as an experiment by Warner Bros to see if the public was ready for another Batman film.
Even narratively speaking it cannot compare with MOS. At the end of that film we knew Bruce had become Batman when the titles were revealed after the cut to black done deliberately to inform the audience that Bruce has been accepted by the public and Gordon and has evolved as Batman. By the end of MOS Clark still isnt Superman.
@jwatkis Ahem, we like Superman the Movie because the character has heart. We know he lacks the power punch action but that's not at all as necessary as his need to do good, to save people, to foil any crime big or small. MOS decided that in order to make Superman work for the 21st century you had to strip what made him popular and unique amongst all heroes to begin with. Sure he has the powers accurately portrayed but without that heart he's only opporating at 50% capacity.
@rosslunney @trans8010 Why should it matter? It's a iconic power of his. It's like saying why do beams of light radiate from his eyes. It could be said that he freezes the air he breathes on the intake and blows it out at subzero temps. Either power makes no lick of sense, but that's one of the joys of Superman it's fantasy. It's not spposed to be taken seriously or realisticly.
@jwatkis @Jet Set Willy Lois wasnt requested like when someone is handed a invite card with a check box under RSVP, her invite was more or less come with us willingly or be brought on board kicking and screaming. She chose to join Kal to prevent an incident.
Using the lack of development as an excuse because it's part one in a trilogy is weak. One part that makes a movie in itself great is the evolution and conflict of the characters.
Superman had conflict in MOS but all of it was handled wrong. Clark couldnt save his father from a tornado why? As a sign of trust? That's illogical you have powers, so save him let Pa Kent see just how much he's been holding his son back have him struck by debris afterward or die from a heart attack something Clark couldnt save him from. Use that message on how even with those powers you cant save someone from everything. His battle in Metropolis wouldnt have been so cold then.
Clark finally finds his destiny as earth's protector and what does he do, he hides! Why? He has powers, a suit and the knowledge he can help people so why doesnt he? Hiding is not how a hero is born. It's not that someone was holding him back at this point his biological father told him to save people.
Why does he immediately kiss Lois Lane after touching down in Metropolis instead of greiving over what his culture has done? Had he realized just how much life was lost in that moment and vowed to Zod that he will stop him at any cost to prevent more unecessary death and destruction I could see his torment as Zod pinned a family with his heat vision.
Also had Zod and Superman been shown with actual bruises and bits of fatique as two EQUALLY powerful people were fighting each other to give the fight that needed dramatic tension instead of just throwing themselves through glass and brick and mortar buildings without any once of pain or emotion that end fight may have been exciting.
That's the complete opposite of the direction he should be going. He needs to be the hero at the end of part 1 so we care about what happens at part 2.
@rosslunney First off no one was arguing over his Power levels. Why people incessantly believe this was the problem with naysayers is beyond me. What we had a problem with was how one dimensional the characters were written, how lazy the plot moves along and how overlong the action sequences were. Superman can punch things. That's great, but where's his heart? The power levels are only 50% of the character, his heart and constant need to do good and help others are what stands the character out from other superheroes in this film he's been resorted to just another superhero strongman. One scene I was especially dissapointed in was after he left the fortress I expected Kal to fly out of that arctic wasteland with a purpose to do good and help others, but he didnt. No, he resorted to more hiding only showing himself when Kryptonians were exposed via the dark maniacal Zod. Only then he takes action because he's forced to. The other most dissapointing scene was how easily and happily his disregards his kryptonian heritage by destroying Krypton's future. In no comic or any adaptation would that EVER be considered right in Superman's code.
@Contrabardus @trans8010 @sefy76 @Batmandrew Superman killing Doomsday is irrelevant to the conversation. As Doomsday had no soul no conscious he existed as a living breathing weapon one that could not be stopped by normal means. It wouldnt have been till years later that the creature's origin be revealed and given sentience. It's not the same as Hank Henshaw at all. Hank was a man driven into insanity for refusing to believe his life was ended by nothing more than an accidental occurance. Also I believe in Adv. 468 when Hank went to retrieve his wife was confronted by Superman who then told him he was of living energy, and decided after the torment of his wife to leave and transferred his form to Superman's birthing matrix, and shot himself into space to hich Superman failed to prevent. In that case there is some familiarity of Hank's abilities to Superman. Which also gives little more evidence into my claim that Superman could have believed him when Cyborg told him he would be back.
7 months, 1 week ago on Why Man of Steel is receiving bad reviews and the public loves this Superman
@Contrabardus @trans8010 @sefy76 @Batmandrew I see no reason why you cannot see my theory without stepping on it and throwing it away as rubbish. If you think Superman II is better with the original ending or not it doesnt change how it would have been considered canon at one point before it's home video release wihich I believe was only in rental form and pretty rare to come by before 1986, tv was how most people rewatched films, that's why ABC, CBS, and NBC's movies of the week became so freaking popular. Just because you never saw this film in it's varying states besides that of the original theatrical doesnt mean it didnt exist in some form. Even if that version was eliminated wouldnt it then be called a retcon.
Much in the same way Superman 466 a comic you've clearly not read tells me, and with that knowledge into Superman 82 proves to me that the intention was always to have Cyborg escape even if Superman did try to kill him, it wasnt gonna happen because I knew Cyborg would find a way out. All those subtle hints throughout the arc how he could transfer his essence to any computer he wanted at will or interface with any piece of machinery and control it.
It may have been fan speculation or the readers perspective but that's what makes reading and collecting comics a fun passtime.