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@loomx @Greg Fenton @Belfour20/JB-45 First I meant like half the league is hurt (probabky more) and I was beinga smart ass about the rest of the players, because they all played badly.........
Its questionable at best if Phaneuf, at his best, is among the best in the league.
3 days, 7 hours ago on NHL Playoffs Round 1 – Open Thread
@loomx @Greg Fenton @Belfour20/JB-45 You realize by the end of the year like half (probably more) of hte league is hurt right? They don't all stop doing their jobs.
ANd I guess our entire top line was hurt. Kadri must have been hurt etc...
@darthNihilus @Greg Fenton @Belfour20/JB-45 @loomx They, not he. Not one of our core/best players did.
I'm ok with Phaneuf not scoring as well. But when he making 7 million dollars a year for the next 7 years and is our best D-man, and 2nd bes tplayer......I become less ok with it.
And don't forget, Phaneuf stopped preventing the goals.
@loomx @Greg Fenton @Belfour20/JB-45 Whent he whole team starts to play poorly, you want and need your top, best and core players to step up. Ours didn't.
@Belfour20/JB-45 @Greg Fenton @loomx I agree, but to be fair Phaneuf is hardly the only player who let us down in the final 20 games or so. Kessel, van Riemsdyk and Bozak disapeared as well. They kept on losing when Bernier came back. As much as I like Bolland and think people are too fast to write him off, he didn't come back and have the same impact as he did earlier. Kadri didn't produce that much in the final 20 games (8 points, thats a 32 point pace) ........
@Bobsyouruncle @Greg Fenton If you don't think Duchene was likely, make it Kane, Seguin, Hamilton, Rielly and someone from the top of the 2013 class
@darthNihilus @Belfour20/JB-45 If you aren't happy with the kind of defense Phaneuf provides, not sure how happy you;'d be with Kaberle......
@Jordan29 @Belfour20/JB-45 But for what? And what do they do about that hole on the blue line?
@loomx @Belfour20/JB-45 or top D-men or Forwards.
@Belfour20/JB-45 @Greg Fenton @loomx At the end of the year, he played pretty solid defense for the first 60 games.
Thats not an excuse, and I think its a problem that our 2nd best player feel apart when they needed him to step up the most, but its not fair to ignore the first 60 games were he did play pretty solid defense.
3 days, 8 hours ago on NHL Playoffs Round 1 – Open Thread
@loomx @Belfour20/JB-45 Wasn't Kaberle playing on that team that Burke took over that most people say "had absolutely nothing"? How much help did he really have if he was on a team that had "nothing"?
@Belfour20/JB-45 @loomx Producing a lot of offense and playing pretty poor defense.
@wendelsfist @Greg Fenton maybe/hopefully./ We'll see what he does this off-season.
Said when he got hired there he went to the wrong Alberta team. I think the Oilers were a much better fit. They'd done that part, they have some great young talent, and someone like Burke who can make things happen, make good trades, maybe/hopefully convince some UFA's.....thats just what the Oilers need.
3 days, 9 hours ago on NHL Playoffs Round 1 – Open Thread
@wendelsfist @Greg Fenton I will never (or rarely) say anything about the value Burke got any in trade (I think he might have gotten hood-winked on Phaneuf but......). Its his timing that was bad. He was wheeling and dealing, trying to get them into the playoffs right away instead of being patient and building something.
@ingy56 @Greg Fenton @Bruffins Yes, the Avs core players are much more committed to playing a two-way game,
@ingy56 @Greg Fenton I've follow the Gibson trail myself in the past, and at one point weren't they dead last in 07-08,. which would have given them Stamkos....but there is a certain level were almost any team can draft lines to several of the top players. A couple l ottery wins and the Leafs have Tavares and Hall playing together on the top line. Plus, who is to say Gibson is who the Leafs would have taken in the 2nd....
To try to keep things somewhat fair and resonable I tried to pick the players who WERE taken with picks that were Leaf picks. Gerber got the Leafs 12 points, and given how he was playing, its very possible Pogge would have left all 12 on the table. Seguin and Hamilton were the guys taken with Leaf picks etc....
@Darkside Beleafer @Bruffins If you score like he does, people over look them.
Look at how long Kaberle was successful and popular here. Hell, when Phaneuf was getting 17 and 20 goals and 50-60 points a year, a lot of people over looked the defensive issues.
Just because I'm bored waiting for Tech support today, which group of players would you rather have as the core of the Leafs today? For a few years people have credited Burke with moving the Leafs forward quicker, getting them talent they didn't have etc... Well we are at/very quickly getting to the catch up point, were the players we missed out because of Burkes direction are now contributing to other teams around the league. So which group looks better?Duchene (Gerber won 6 games, if Pogge lost all 6 of those games and the lottery didn't change positino, they would have drafted 3rd), Seguin, Hamilton, Rielly, most likely a top 10 selection last year. Or Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak, van Riemsdyk and Lupul?
just a side note - I guess there is no reason why the van Riemsdyk/Schenn trade still couldnt have taken place, so he might be part of both.
@Bruffins @Greg Fenton well, he isn't. At the very least, no worse then Phaneuf.
3 days, 10 hours ago on NHL Playoffs Round 1 – Open Thread
@ingy56 @Bruffins Eric Johnson was pretty solid for the Avs this year.
@Bruffins Doughty. Keith, Seabrook, if Hedman continues to play the way he did this year, him. Pieterangelo......off the top of my head.
@darthNihilus @The_Polish_Cannon @CanuckUKinToronto @loomx @Bobsyouruncle McCauley did pretty well with the Sharks.
I think most of the players who are now/ have teared it up with other teams were moved out before they were in the NHL (like Rask) or even before we had the chance to draft them (Seguin).
@loomx @CanuckUKinToronto @Bobsyouruncle @darthNihilus IF it isn't a direct comparison, why list their stats next to each other, why not simply posts Kadri's?
@loomx @Greg Fenton @CanuckUKinToronto @Bobsyouruncle @darthNihilus Yes it is. Thats the only reason to compare him to players like Crosby and Backstrom.
You can say Kadri has been good WITHOUT bring up stats that directly compare him to some of the best in the league.
@Mind Bomb @deedrag @Mcost61 @Jmessih I don't think anyone is saying we NEED a winger, those 2 are just likely to be among the best players available at #8
@loomx @CanuckUKinToronto @Bobsyouruncle @darthNihilus But by choosing a table/stat that includes players like Crosby it is directly or indirectly implying that Kadri COULD or WILL improve the way he and others on that list did.
3 days, 11 hours ago on NHL Playoffs Round 1 – Open Thread
@ConnorCrisp @Bobsyouruncle @darthNihilus Wow, that was a leap that no one was making. People are just questioning the point and value of the table.
@loomx @Greg Fenton @Belfour20/JB-45 Did he score when the team NEEDED a goal.....Did he step up this year whent he team was falling out of the playoffs or 2 years ago when they were fallin gout of the playoffs......
And its not just him. van Riemsdyk didn`t. Bozak didn`t. Phaneuf was at his worst whent he team needed him the most. The only core player I would say, this year, who produced well (and thats partly because he plays a lesser role) was Lupul.
@loomx @Greg Fenton @CanuckUKinToronto He is the Leafs 1D man, that doesn``t make A 1D.
Kinda like how Bozak is the Leafs 1C, but that doesn`t make him A 1C.
And are we now pretending that `there isn`t trade for Weber talk every 2-3 days on here now
@loomx @Greg Fenton @Belfour20/JB-45 As I said below, I don`t have a problem with Phaneuf`s leadership either. The issue in regards to leadership is that there isn`t enough of it, not that guys like Phaneuf and Lupul are bad at it.
And it goes beyond leadership. Talent wise, produce wise, being there in the clutch, being consistant etc... this core is lacking.
@loomx @CanuckUKinToronto A lot of people think the Leafs need a legit number 1 d-man, like a Weber. Thats not getting Phaneuf help, its getting someone for Phaneuf to help.
@loomx @Belfour20/JB-45 You shouldn`t make decsisions about a core that has only made hte playoffs once in 3 years, has never been considered a legit cup contender, has now collapsed 3 times in 3 years.........Why are they beyond criticism and blame for the teams issues
@CanuckUKinToronto @Belfour20/JB-45 @loomx Thats it......
3 days, 12 hours ago on NHL Playoffs Round 1 – Open Thread
@loomx @Greg Fenton @B_Leaf I don't think there is anything wrong with Phaneuf or Lupul as leaders. I think the issue is they don't have enough other leaders around them. I also like what Lupul brings to the secondary scoring, and I think they'll be somewhat hard pressed to replace him if they move him. I don't think his age = he should be moved.
And I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said, but sure.
@Burtonboy @Keeon But if he can't/doesn't increase his production to the level that those players increased their's too int he next year or two, then this stat is kinda meaningless though.
And would anyone bet that Kadri is going to start putting up 80-100 points in the next 1-2 years?
Once Upon a Time Sergi Samsonov had a better rookie year and won the Calder over his teammate Joe Thornton. Thornton got much better over the next 2-3 years......ultimately did Samsonov's better rookie year mean anything?
A few years ago many Leaf fans were SUPER high on Kyle Wellwood. In his first 2 years (when he was 22 and 23) he had 87 points in 129 games. That would put hima bove Kadri on this list in PPG. How does he measure up the greats on that list?
@B_Leaf @Greg Fenton As several people have started to suggest/advocate - blow the team up.
Thats the thing with this team. I can and does look great at times - their 10-4 start, their 11 of 15 wins (or whatever it was) in the middle of the year. But also looked pretty bad at times. Shouldn't we be shooting for more then a team that bounces between good and bad?We don't we know where we are? They are a bubble team that can make the playoffs their hot and cold streaks come at the right times, and they'll miss if they come at the wrong times. This year was susposed to be a stepping stone year, after making the playoffs they were susposed to make them and win a round.
@dlb meh @Greg Fenton Everytime I talk to you it just reminds me why I ignore you most of the time.....Are you really this thick or do you just like making dumb argments to annoy people?You said players need good leadership to aid in their development, so I pointed ou tthat poor Tavares will never develop into a good center because there isn't a good leadership group in New York. Duchene, also, will never develop with the Avs (poor MacKInnon too, all he has to follow is Duchene). And yes, players like Kessel and van Riemsdyk and Bozak etc... have little to no development left in them, they are not going to become more then what they are now, just like Lucic and Marchant aren't going too. No one would call the Bruins a developing team, and only Leaf fans who want to cling to the hope they had 5 years ago would call the Leafs one.
@B_Leaf So around 3/4 of the team that collapsesed, couldn't make the playoffs, no one considered a contender is what/who they should keep and build around.
@dlb meh @Greg Fenton Rielly no. Kessel and van Riemsdyk "are what they are".
Phaneuf also surprised me by regressing even further as an offensive player, and he didn't "develop" any further into a legit #1 D-man, an elite or frnachise D-man. We all knew Bozak could center those 2.
@dlb meh @Greg Fenton Point nice side-stepped.
@dlb meh @Greg Fenton Mayhbe you're right. I feel so bad for Tavares. He'll never devleop into a quality player because there is no veteran there for him to play under......
Look dlb, you thought you had a point with games played, but you didn't check the number before you posted, and you were wrong. The Bruins players in the same age range have, if anything, a little less experience then the Leafs players. You're trying to side-step into "veterans and leadership = development" now. I know its hard, but its time to let go of the "The Leafs are still a developing team".
3 days, 13 hours ago on NHL Playoffs Round 1 – Open Thread
@dlb meh @Greg Fenton I think its weak argument and false hope to claim guys like Kessel are still developing, and its even more silly when you look at a team like the Bruins which has just as many players in the same age range with similar (if not less) experience and don't consider them a developing team.
I know you don't like it, but for the most part the key Leaf players, the core Leaf players, the players the Leafs will "win on the back of" are not developing talents
@dlb meh @Greg Fenton So you're saying the Leafs lack quality talent? Well we agree there. As for #2, not really. There are lots of examples of young players coming up on bad teams and developing just fine. But you missed the point. The Bruins have more leadership, they have more veteran players. YES, they do. But the Leafs lacking veteran players and veteran leadership has ZERO effect on players like Kessel, van Riemsdyk, Kadri, etc... still developing and getting better even those they are the same as their Boston counter parts (who aren't young and developing), and have more experience.
@dlb meh You just tried to take 2 different concepts and mash them together to create this great postive for the Leafs.
The Leafs lack the veteran leadership the Bruins do. Fine, I would agree with that. HOWEVER lacking veteran leadership has NOTHING to do with, no link and no effect on the Leafs players having potential they have yet to live up too.
@dlb meh First, its not age but games played, you still need to stop going back to the Leafs having low average age as an excuse/positive thing that means they are still developing and only getting better.
Second these players have this many games played - Lucic - 485, Marchand - 300, Caron - 123, Florek - 4, Smith - 122, Bartowski - 84, Hamilton - 106, Krug - 82 and Millar - 47
The Leafs who are 26 or young have this many games played - Kessel - 586 (the most experienced out all the players here), van Riemsdyk - 324, kadri - 177, Franson - 322, Gardiner - 167, Rielly - 73, Holland - 68, Ashton - 47, Leivo - 7
So guys like Kessel, van Riemsdyk, Franson..... have all played more games the Marchand, while Kadri and Gardiner have more then Caron. They both have young players/call ups with very few games. Its not like the Leafs 26 and under players have played way less games the Bruins 26 and under players.
@clark sittler No D'Amigo?
@MaxwellHowe For fairly short periods of time, inbetween which he played at a lower level (sometimes in the AHL), he hasn't done it for a full season yet.
I'm sure lots of teams would be interested in him, I just doubt at the cost of the 3rd overall pick, without any one else coming and/or picks being swapped.
@animalres And blaming them equally. Its unfortunate, but some players (Phaneuf) seem to be getting a lot of blame from a lot of fans while some other players (the whole top line) seem to be getting a pass from a lot of players. I would argue, in regards to a lot of the players on this team, thats not only are they not young and developing, but they are playing the best hockey they might ever play in their careers right now. This is as good as its going to get.
@MaxwellHowe @CanuckUKinToronto @barjv01 I doubt that. I don't think the Oilers give up that pick for a player who has yet to play well for a whole season. I don't think his college partner even comes into play.
Would you want the Leafs to give up the 3rd overall pick for a player like Jake Gardiner, at this point in his career?
@Keeon I've been pointing this out all season long.
3 days, 14 hours ago on NHL Playoffs Round 1 – Open Thread