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@Burtonboy @Cameron19 @phaneufoundlander @DeclanK Yea, a clear example of a player's shortcomings not being effort or laziness. He probably played his heart out and just couldn't do it with the injuries. 

5 hours, 12 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Burtonboy @Cameron19 @phaneufoundlander @DeclanK Yea, sucks for him. He really wanted it to work here. 

5 hours, 15 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@phaneufoundlander That's uncharacteristically optimistic of you, if you don't mind my saying so. Good to hear!

5 hours, 17 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@phaneufoundlander @DeclanK Apparently injured himself in the summer and hasn't been able to skate the same since. 

5 hours, 19 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@GVR_JVR @Mcost61 @Cameron19 We'd be rolling the lines. The Kings have Brown (5.875M) and Richards (5.75M) in their bottom six. We'll be okay. 

5 hours, 36 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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What I'd like to see when healthy:

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Booth - Kadri - Kessel

J.V.R. - Bozak - Panik/Kozun

Komarov - Holland - Lupul

Winnik - Santo - Clarkson

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Rielly - Phaneuf

Percy - Franson

Gardiner - Polak

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Bernier

5 hours, 42 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@steele123 @GeorgeCastanza @Bruffins If he can hit 35-40 points, I think his contract is pretty much on the money. 

5 hours, 47 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@MaxwellHowe @Cameron19 @DeclanK Hmm, never heard that before. 

5 hours, 50 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Burtonboy Nestrasil has nice size. Didn't realize he was 210. 

5 hours, 51 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@MaxwellHowe @DeclanK They could always bury Frattin's contract. 

5 hours, 52 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@DeclanK I had low expectations, but I still thought he'd be better than Wallin. 

5 hours, 52 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@dlb Mad @Mcost61 Price, and they have a D set-up that allows them to have Subban on the 2nd pair. That is a huge luxury. 

6 hours, 8 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Mcost61 I don't think the Leafs players like dealing with the extra media attention that comes with playing the way they did the last two games. In that sense, they're pretty accountable. More so perhaps than a lot of teams who don't get the kind of attention the Leafs do. 

6 hours, 10 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@DeclanK @Cameron19 @MaxwellHowe @deedrag @Mcost61 @Yan28 True but I think the first collapse had more to do with the goalies.

6 hours, 12 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@dlb Mad @Cameron19 And I said to you yesterday that I think there might be a reason beyond "not working hard". If Rielly is doing it too, is it possible that Carlyle has advised on this? Glide and poke, or glide and pin your man vs. win the race? And I'm not trying to deflect blame. Maybe Phaneuf is just being lazy. I don't think that's the case, but is it even possible that he's being asked to do that?

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Last year Dion took a lot of heat for not fighting. This year, Carlyle said he basically told Dion he doesn't want to see him involved that way. I'm really not blaming Carlyle here. I'm just trying to understand why a player suddenly stops doing what was working. And if you were the coach, wouldn't you tell Dion what he's not doing? Because I don't get the vibe that this is happening. The coaches seem more focused on what the forwards aren't doing properly, to my ears (and probably rightfully so).

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Last night I watched the Rags/Flyers game specifically to watch the D on both sides and how they approached the situation we're talking about. I noticed with the Flyers, that when they won their race to the puck, they would actually end up losing possession of the puck. They would rim it around the boards, or try to get it to their partner, or look for a forward outlet that wasn't in position, and they would end up hemmed in. They actually gained possession back more easily by allowing the Rags to get there, and then taking it away from them with a battle. 

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Maybe Phaneuf is just being lazy, but I somehow doubt that. I think this is a response to how poor our forwards are at coming back and getting in position. When Carlyle/Nonis/Shanny talks about what ails Phaneuf, none of them mention this kind of thing - they mention not getting the help he needs. I think you give him Bergeron as a enter, and suddenly he's winning those races again and out-letting quickly to his ready and waiting center. 

6 hours, 14 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@MaxwellHowe @Cameron19 @deedrag @Mcost61 @Yan28 I'll give you an example: Ron Wilson had just had the team playing at a 102 point pace over an 82 game season for over 100 games - a full calendar year, and then some. We had a strong January that I believe included 4 shutouts. Then, Gustavsson got hurt, and Reimer took the net back prematurely, and our collapse began.

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In two weeks, the pressure to fire Wilson mounted to such an unbelievable extent, that Burke said he fired Ron Wilson out of mercy - saying he couldn't let his friend go out there and endure that for one more night.

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I think Burke would have preferred to wait to fire Wilson. Instead, the fans forced his hand when Carlyle was still available. Instead of looking at options in summer, we took the available "name brand" guy and moved along. If not for the fans, we might have landed Tippet or Hitchcock. That decision changes the course of the team, and it was almost entirely dictated by fan pressure. 

6 hours, 24 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@deedrag @Cameron19 @Mcost61 @Yan28 Yea, in the summer my feeling was that I literally could not envision a series of trades/signings/draftings that would pull us out of this mess, even assuming lopsided deals and affordable signings, lol. Not much has changed. 

6 hours, 28 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@deedrag @Cameron19 @Yan28 For sure. A cycle can be broken though, it's just not likely to come from the fans. We are going to need an ownership group that gives a management group the confidence to do whatever it wants regardless of fan/media pressure for years and years.

6 hours, 30 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@sniperstar @Jmessih I got about 20 mocking texts from random old and current friends that night. Everyone loves when the Leafs fail. 

6 hours, 32 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@deedrag @Mcost61 @Yan28 lol, So literally everything is wrong. 

6 hours, 33 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@dlb Mad @Cameron19 I don't think you have any idea how hard he's working.

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It's hard not to lump right now, because we've reached the boiling point. It's not just a few guys. This is a mini-movement within Leafs Nation that has been moving for years now. Like Bruffins always said, there was a portion of this fan base that thought Mark Fraser was better than Phaneuf. When you have guys like that steering the conversation, it's hard to take the narrative seriously. 

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Now there is finally some legitimate ammunition for those guys to work with, and the result is a series of criticisms that are far bigger than they should be. 

6 hours, 35 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Yan28 This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say the fans force decisions that ultimately just harm the team. 

6 hours, 42 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@sniperstar @LeafsGuru And that 5.5 looked bad when the cap fell, but now he's back to making 5 again. We have millions in dead cap space now because of that situation, and our over-reaction to players being overpaid. 

6 hours, 43 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Yan28 @Cameron19 Wow. Good to know you support assault. 

6 hours, 45 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@dlb Mad @Cameron19 I think that you are painting a very rosy picture for half of that equation, and the opposite for the others. The strongest haters weren't even silenced by Phaneuf's strong play. They would try very hard to pick out the few errors from each game.

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And the same time, I had a couple long winded posts yesterday explaining what I thought about Phaneuf. It was not just gushing praise and excuses. Yes, I do believe there are a number of systematic and usage reasons for his struggles, but I said it does look like he's lost something. I just happen to be of the mind that he would probably gain that something back with a little better usage. 

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If you want Dion to improve, I'd say to maybe try something different with him. His success came on the right side - why is it an "excuse" to think he might play better there? He spent 8 years as one of the most dominant point producers in the league on the right point of the PP - why is an excuse to think he might find some success there?

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It seems to me like our solutions with Dion have so far been to back him further and further into a corner and give him less and less to work with. This DOES NOT mean I don't also think he has his own personal struggles to deal with on the ice. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Like with most things in life, there are usually a combination of factors. 

6 hours, 46 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Yan28 No one deserves to have beer cans chucked at them, either. 

6 hours, 54 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@The Dude Hey bud. 

6 hours, 58 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@dlb Mad @Cameron19 I agreed with Fenton about many things. And if people actually bothered to read my commentary instead of just reacting to what they perceive to be me "loving" Phaneuf, they would know I actually support trading Phaneuf, as well as Kessel. 

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Most of what I disagreed with Fenton on was semantics. I also hated that he was incapable of talking about anything but trading Kessel. Every comment he had was designed to circle the conversation back to that point. 

6 hours, 59 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Yan28 Looks like that paper has some insightful journalism within. 

7 hours, 5 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@TheLoovTrain @Cameron19 @Darkside Beleafer @dlb Mad @sniperstar I was not talking to you with those comments. I'm talking to 4 or 5 posters, who I've been arguing with for years and years now on similar matters. I'm embarrassed that I said things like that in a general sense. I certainly didn't mean you, or 98% of the posters I encounter on here.

7 hours, 6 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Jay_Berg Yea, I'm much more agreeable in person, for sure. 

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To me, the Phaneuf situation on here is like Komisarek X 10. I really believe if everyone had just shut the fuck up about how much they hated Komisarek, they might have been able to find a taker. But we draw so much negative attention to players (and I don't mean MLHS, I mean, fans, media, collectively), I think we shoot ourselves in the foot.

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If you really hate Phaneuf, I think the best thing you could do is cheer for him. 

7 hours, 8 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Komas Taberle @Cameron19 @Mcost61 @Yaknowwhat Well, when Dreger reported that Phaneuf was known to be injured behind the scenes, I thought that probably meant he was injured. Around that time, Lieweke did an interview and said we had several key players injured down the stretch. When Shanahan arrived, he said we weren't going to use injuries as an excuse. Then we only found out about Gunnarsson's injury because someone saw him in a sling. 

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I'm not a doctor, but the evidence we have suggests he was probably injured. 

7 hours, 14 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Jay_Berg Ha, well, I hope that makes you think I'm a little less crazy. 

7 hours, 18 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Jay_Berg Ha, true enough. It does effect my ability to come here and have a meaningful conversation about the Leafs though. Pretty much the only thing that's okay to talk about now is what a piece of garbage Phaneuf is. I open up the browser and find 10 hate posts and a story about Jack Johnson. 

7 hours, 20 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Jay_Berg They don't see it as irrational anger though. They actually think they're incredibly clever. 

7 hours, 23 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Jay_Berg It doesn't effect my daily well being at all. I just remember when we used to talk about hockey here, that's all. 

7 hours, 25 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Komas Taberle @Cameron19 @Mcost61 @Yaknowwhat lol, You know about his extra curricular activities now? Well, I've heard it all. Continue the Hate. It's clearly justified.

7 hours, 26 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@DeclanK @Cameron19 @Yaknowwhat @Komas Taberle @Mcost61 Yea, Phaneuf Hate Hot Stove isn't for me today anyways. 

7 hours, 27 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Yaknowwhat @Cameron19 @Komas Taberle @Mcost61 It's not a lie at all man. If Bob were here, he'd dig into your history to prove it to you. Flag it all you want. I won't stand for your flip flopping nonsense. 

7 hours, 30 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Darkside Beleafer @dlb Mad @sniperstar I really don't believe there's anything Phaneuf could do to gain support from the people who don't like him. They play lip service to that notion, but when he was dominant for 60+ games last year, they just went into hiding on the subject and waited for their moment to strike again. 

7 hours, 31 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Yaknowwhat @Cameron19 @Komas Taberle @Mcost61 I argued with you about pretty much every one of those. They aren't lies. 

7 hours, 35 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Yaknowwhat It's the number of reasons that work against him that make the claim accurate. If it were just one or two of those things working against him, I would expect him to persevere. But there really isn''t a D in a comparably bad situation anywhere in the NHL - yet you can't see it, because it might hurt your argument. 

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If he doesn't finish the contract here, it is unfortunately going to be because our smart fans called for, yet again. In that case, I will look forward to seeing him be dominant elsewhere, like everyone else you've been wrong about. 

7 hours, 36 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Komas Taberle @Cameron19 @Mcost61 @Yaknowwhat You're making some assumptions about what caused the poor play. You want to make it about "showing up", but that's fucking garbage and you know it. Last year he was clearly injured. He suddenly started missing practices, taking days off, keeling over in pain on the bench, limping, etc...

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I think Phaneuf has been fine this season. Not great, but fine. Obviously the last two games were bad, but even then, he was an even player in a 9-2 loss. But he was playing solid in the 9 games before that. I thought he was good in the first couple games of the season, which was over-shadowed largely because of one, singular play, where he got beat by Pacioretty (and still managed to push him behind the goal line). 

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The truth is, you've been on Dion's case forever, and you're actually thrilled you finally have some evidence to support your claims. I get it. But Phaneuf will be fine. He will probably always be a touch overpaid, but that's the price of keeping players in Toronto where they have to deal with people like you telling them what a bag of shit they are 24/7. 


7 hours, 38 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@mcloki @Cameron19 @Dogger Yea, I meant it would be odd for normal people who suddenly came into money. I understand why it might happen with athletes. 

7 hours, 43 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Yaknowwhat @dlb Mad lol, According to who? You?

7 hours, 45 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Yaknowwhat @Cameron19 @Komas Taberle @Mcost61 This is just for you Yak, because you were the Leaf Fan who was wrong about pretty  much every one of these:

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What Leaf fans say/think versus reality:

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LF: MacArthur is garbage; not even a top nine player

Reality: MacArthur is a top line player for a better team than the Leafs

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LF: Kulemin is totally expendable and could be replaced by D'Amigo

Reality: Kulemin is a top line winger on a playoff team

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LF: Nobody wants Grabovski, we'd never move his contract, buyout was a smart move

Reality: Grabovski gets 25M in new contract money immediately after being bought out

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LF: Colborne is a terrible prospect with no heart

Reality: Colborne outscores our entire bottom 6 and takes strides the following year

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LF: Liles is done in the NHL and should be in the AHL

Reality: Liles is playing top 4 minutes against good comp; led his team in +/-

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LF: Dave Bolland should be resigned because he's a heart and soul guy who wins

Reality: Bolland is barely an NHL player at this point; overpaid by at least 300%

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LF: Gustavsson will never stick in the NHL

Reality: 3 years later, Gustavsson still a reliable 20 starts back-up.

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The people who are always wrong, literally never get tired of being wrong....

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So tell me, what makes you think you're right about Phaneuf when you've been wrong about just about everything Leaf related for years now?

7 hours, 46 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Yaknowwhat @Cameron19 @Komas Taberle @Mcost61 Over, and over, and over again. You know you play to your audience - your guys who will give you the likes for your little blurb about the money and laziness. 

7 hours, 49 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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@Komas Taberle @Cameron19 @Mcost61 @Yaknowwhat I love how 2 games where the team didn't show up is considered more important than the previous 8 games, where he was very good, lol. The joke continues. 

7 hours, 51 minutes ago on Thursday Mashup: Sky yet to fall, Leafs vs. Lightning tonight

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