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@Kevin Bjornson @daybreakin2121 @Richard Vajs
What a bunch of baloney. If one does not agree with your world view, you seek to demonize them.
I down played down nothing that the German state did. You are the one that did that when you neglected to include the huge numbers of other victims the Nazi regime murdered. Only those of Jewish descent are important in your mind. Almost like the rest weren't quite human.
I am well aware of the history of the Jewish people and their repeated persecution. It's ironic that the the Islamic states in the past actually shielded the Jews from the Christians. Without such protection, they very well might have perished as a people. But you see things through your own racism and hatred while projecting such on others.
BTW. The Gaza tunnels have been used in two incidents. Both targets were Israeli soldiers. On the other hand the innocent children in Gaza And the tunnels have another purpose. To bring in food, medicine and fuel into the open air prison camp that is Gaza. . You use claims of the German atrocity against the Jews and yes others based on numbers. Well, ...... over 1,500 CIVILIAN residents of Gaza have lost their lives. including 250-400 innocent hildren. But those don't seem to count. Almost like they aren't quite human.
I do nothing to oppress you or Jewish people, or anyone else for that matter. I do not support such oppression in any form. Neither do I advocate that anyone pay for .what I believe in. But you do exactly that for what YOU believe in. Your excuse is that the Jewish people have been persecuted in the past. I accept that has indeed happened. .But I reject that I owe the Jewish people, or any others anything. I reject the use of force to redress a past wrong. Life and history is not always just.
Repeatedly here you insult demean and disparage and seek to shout down any that disagree using . disingenuous claims. Your vitriol is so extreme and demonizing so intense, one must wonder if you you had the power to do so if you would place others into cages or worse. Just disagreeing with such as you seems to be a crime in your mind. Such hubris.
6 months, 2 weeks ago on Washington Opened The Gates Of Hell In Iraq: Now Come The Furies
@Kevin Bjornson @Richard Vajs ear
The German Nazi State did indeed murder a huge number of innocent people. That is what many states do. Murder and oppression is a common function of the state. Some do more, and others less. The rationals given for this have repeated themes and target underlying emotions in order to get support. .Hatred of a internal or closely external population is one. In the case of the German Nazi regime, Jews were a internal target population. But they were hardly alone in being targets. Roma, Slavs, Poles, Ukrainian's and others were murdered in the millions.
One may ask; why is this referred to as "The Jewish Holocaust"? Why not just use : "Human Holocaust" ? And why is there so little recognition to other victims and other examples of predatory states? The voices of others is drowned out. Those others murdered by governments total in the hundreds of millions. Just in the 20th century.
Other themes used by states include beliefs of superiority. This is claimed to come form a deity, a history, a genetic identity, moral imperative , political ideology and others. Scratch below the surface rhetoric and one finds intolerance. The people that attracted to the power of the state and use that power are generally either opportunists or zealots. This is a recipe for oppression.
Moving past this waste of human lives and human potential would entail an understanding of natural law and true individual human rights. This would result in the state and those that use the state to lose power. And that is why there is so much disinformation propagated by those that enable the state and it's inevitable oppression of it's population.
Nazi Germany is just one example of a state at war with people. True, this is a truly egregious example. But it is hardly stands alone as an example. Some states are more circumspect in their oppression of the population ruled. And today, those that rule nations, often have found more effective ways to control their people.
You do understand what words like "atrocity" and "victims" mean? I used such in context of the Jewish people (and others BTW) in WW2 Germany?
Try reading what people write. i know that's hard for you but try anyway.
@Kevin Bjornson @daybreakin2121 @13 Eagles
Re: "We" . Try reading the comment Brian. It's pretty clear what I meant
You haven't "documented" any thing Brian. Just the sources that are clearly biased. "Dozens of articles" ....Right. There were dozens of articles on WMD in Iraq also. They all came from the same source and were lies. I din't believe the claims or the supposed WMD and the imminent threat the US interests. The same sources now are likely the ones you still use as "documentation".
As for Hamas? I stated I am not a fan. Neither am I a fan or the Israeli state. And no, that does not make me anti Semitic. Those that seek to label people that dare criticize the state of Israel are also branded such. To me, it weakens their argument. One does not necessarily follow the other. This is as absurd as the claim that because a person criticizes Obama, that person hates African Americans.
As for the current conflict in Gaza? As is often the case in the crazy Middle East, who started what is difficult to determine. But in June 2014, Israel cracked down on Hamas in Gaza. That led to fringe Hamas affiliates to launch rockets into Israeli held land.. Israel responded with multiple air strikes, ...not on those that actually did the attack, but on elements of the Hamas leadership, killing 7. Then Hamas launched rockets into Israel. Over the last 13 years, 28 Israelis have been killed by rocket attacks. Some 1900 have been injured. The vast majority have been civilians.
In the latest conflict, over 2,000 Palestinian's have been killed. Including sone 250- 400 children. killed. 500,000 civilians have been driven from their homes. And the vast majority of these deaths have been innocent civilians. Israeli deaths are pegged at 72. Mostly military.
Funny, the arguments you continue to use are exactly the same as used by others I have read on the internet. Almost like they all come from the same source. Like bogus WMD did.
Let me know when you actually read what I write. I CLEARLY said I oppose all foreign aid to ANY country.
Dig yourself in a little deeper Kevin.
@Kevin Bjornson @13 Eagles @daybreakin2121 I don't care what a organization uses for an name. I don't care what their claims are. Each person can make up their own minds as to the veracity of the claims.
"We" didn't slaughter Jews in the holocaust.. Neither did "we" murder the Cambodians under Pol Pot. Add Rwanda, East Timor, the Congo and MANY more. Fact is those were done because people empowered a state. Without empowering a state murder at this scale is impossible,
Frankly, the use of a term "the" along with "holocaust" indicates that this atrocity was somehow unique. It wasn't. The implication that this was somehow different because the victims were Jewish is disturbing for what should be obvious reasons. Also the concept that I was involved or I as an individual owe someone something to someone because of THEIR families historical background? I reject it. Leave me alone. If you insist that I somehow owe another and must pay in one way or another means you support MY oppression.
As far as the fact in the latest violent incursion of the Israeli state into Gaza? There was a truce between Israel and Hamas. That truce was indeed broken. By Israel. With 49 incursions of the IDF into Gaza. All of which were unanswered by Hamas. Then came one were several leaders of Hamas were killed by the IDF. THEN Hamas lobed rockets into Israel.
The tunnels are a canard. As was the claims that the supposed kidnapping of three Israeli youths justified another incursion into Gaza. Hamas always takes "credit" for such if they do it. In this case Hamas denied it's involvement. Note I am not a Hamas fan either. But the sheer amount of propaganda by Israel and the knee jerk defenders of that state requires digging a little deeper if one is to have a opinion not warped by this massive control of the media and powerful lobby groups by pro Israeli advocates. Indeed, the amount of sheer disinformation is similar to that of Nazi propaganda minister Goebbels. "Repeat . the lies" indeed.
On the above....I disagree with the US involvement in the Middle East. I am forced to support such with taxes and by deficit spending / and reduction in the buying power of my earnings due to expansion of the money supply by the Federal Reserve to pay for it. This is oppression. By pro Israel elements that have an disproportionate influence on western media and many states throughout the world. I do not blame the Jewish people for this. As individuals, many oppose these things. BUT I do blame pro Israel groups and the Israeli state for this.
The insanity is to retain an institution that daily robs the productive and transfers their wealth to the unproductive.
The insanity is to not getting rid of the Federal Reserve long ago. This institution was empowered under an unconstitutional charter that included price stability and instead has caused the buying power of the dollar to decline by 96%.
The Federal Reserve attempts to centrally plan the US economy. This in the face of massive proof that centrally planned economies do not do well. It is insane, given this fact to actually INCREASE the power of the Fed after repeated failures. This is exactly what has happened.
You talk about millions of transactions and the need to have the Federal Reserve for this. The fact is these functions can be done EASILY and would quickly be replaced by free markets as soon as an announcement was made that the Fed was being discontinued.
Again, the arguments you use are versions of those statists use to defend the status quo, crony, corrupt and extractive established order.
6 months, 3 weeks ago on Washington Opened The Gates Of Hell In Iraq: Now Come The Furies
@Kevin Bjornson @daybreakin2121 @13 Eagles
A non sequitur. The Fed is not producing food, or any other service. To use your analogy....... The "farm" is being extracted. Getting rid of Central Banking removes a drain on the farm, increasing it;s productivity, not eliminating it. Your argument assumes the Fed has either a function that cannot be rapidly replaced or that there is a positive function in the first place. Central Banking is toxic to the economy.
A better analogy would be if one is getting robbed, and defrauded, then why would one be hesitant to remove the means that the criminals are using to rob you? The only people to get hurt here would be the criminals.
@Kevin Bjornson @rmjarvis
Israel most closely matches the traits of "National Socialism".
@rmjarvis @Kevin Bjornson Not all RM. But quite a few. Most are not, but Neo-Cons, regardless of who they are, are hugely destructive to the USA and the world. As far as "Kevin" ? Who knows? I, myself would wonder if he is connected with something like Hasbara.
Technically the Fed is privatized now. Just given authority by the government to a greater degree than the other crony monopolies that the state enables for the benefit of the powerful at the expense of the general population.
There is no need for a central banking except as a means of extracting wealth from the productive. The Fed "creates" money digitally. That "money" is not backed by real production or savings. It only dilutes the actual savings based on real production,
As far as "clearing checks, card transactions, and wire transfers..."? Those functions can easily be accomplished by other means.
You said.... "Why do you bother to engage in debate, when you have already written the script?" You should look into a mirror when you say such. Using verbal extremes such as " the results would be catastrophic" is an example of what you have been doing . throughout this thread. And THAT is an attempt to write "the script".
Your rationalizations simply distill down to "there is a situation, difficulty or problem......therefore the State, or therefore the Fed, or therefore intervention." There are other solutions. Better solutions. Solutions that do not entail repression or oppression in the form theft or other assaults on the property and person of anothers.
@Kevin Bjornson @rmjarvis Iran is hardly a threat to Israel. During the Iran Iraq war, Israel provided and sold Iran with weapons, parts for military aircraft (that came as US "foreign aid" ) and personal to repair Iranian weapon systems that Iran could no longer get from the USA.
Iran is hardly a threat to Israel. Israel has one of the largest nuclear weapons arsenals on the earth. And Israel has accurate delivery systems able to destroy any target in Iran. Or Pakistan. Israel also is able to launch ballistic and cruse missile from submarines. Israel also has Iran outgunned in fighter jets, tanks and pretty much everything else.
Iran is just the next target. Just like Iraq was. Israel was well aware that Iraq had no WMD prior to the 2003 debacle of the USA's invasion. Still, Israel cheered the USA on in what is becoming the greatest strategic disaster for the USA in the last 50 years.
Now Iran is the target. Iran which is the natural counter to the rising military power if ISIS, al Nusra and al Queda.
True. There are many non Jewish Neo-Cons. Fact is that many Jewish people have been, and now are, those that rank most effective in opposing the insane US policy of the Neo-Con dominated US state. Kudos to them.
I don't care what ethnic or religious or whatever a neo-con is. Fact is that ideology is subversive to the world's peace and prosperity. Dangerous.
@Kevin Bjornson @13 Eagles Nonsense and another statist answer. . The Federal Reserve and central banking is a cartel/monopoly . It allows a financial elite to skim off wealth from the economies of the world. Those elites are parasites. Worse, central banking is destructive to the economies of world. Under central banking, booms and bust become the norm and speculation is promoted instead or real investment.
Romes republic ended the same way states usually do. Those that are attracted to power gravitate to the easiest way of gaining wealth and power. That is through the state. These people are not the best of humanity....to say the least. Rather they are the worst. A examination of their psychology shows most of them to be akin to con men. Narcissistic and sociopathic, they surround themselves with those that mirror their own beliefs. Cronies.
The results are always a disassociation with those they seek to rule. They come to believe that their intellect and decisions place the state above natural law. The result is oppression. Often, this results in useless wars against the people of other states and against their subject populations. States murdered their own people in the hundreds of millions in the last century alone.
Mass theft.. Wars. Genocide. Oppression. The legacy of the state. Time to move pass it.
@Kevin Bjornson @daybreakin2121
LOL. You're not a anarcho capitalist any more than neo-cons were/are conservatives. Neo cons fooled the old right but you're not fooling people like me anymore. I witnessed the neo-con infiltration of the conservative movement and how they undermined that political ideology.
Your words betray you. Glossing over with a handful of inconsistent phrases won't convince.
@Kevin Bjornson @daybreakin2121 @13 Eagles
Gee, I wouldn't know. But if you figure out why you support fascism let me know. Again Nazi, Communism, Fascism, Socialism and other political ideologies that are statist are your game. NOT mine.
@Kevin Bjornson @daybreakin2121 I hardly "by passed" your words. And like anyone intelligent does, I create my opinions based on what I see in words, actions or support of the actions of others. Experience. I have quite a lot of that.
Then you go on to do the same thing you criticize me for! LOL. But really, you might want to bone up a bit on political theory and the function of the state.
And no. I would not "overthrow these statist governments by force" That's your kind of solution . I seek a answer that is beyond the state. I know it is inconceivable to you, but there are many functions of society that exist quite well without the state. I would seek to expand that. And no, I don't have to explain how that is to be done. Most of the advances in technology and the human condition were not seen in advance. I have faith the humanity can find answers that do not require increasing restrictions on peoples natural rights.
Funny that those that control the state are able to increase the power and wealth they have without being productive. This is know as "political entrepreneurship" or the "political means". They accomplish such by duping the masses using propaganda such as explained by Bernay's in "Propaganda".
Amusing that you fall back on the use of force again and again in your arguments. Also quite telling.
@Kevin Bjornson @13 Eagles
Here we go with the lame guilt by alleged association stuff again. Wow. And playing a modified Hitler card too! LOL. So predictable with "liberty" posers. Yeah this stuff was all over Neo-Con, Progressive and other super statist sites. Clear where you are coming from Kevin. Note: Hitler was a statist. He came tom power as a result of US intervention in WW 1. As did Lenin and because of Lenin...Stalin. Now statist interventionists are empowering radical Islam. Wash rinse repeat ....... the same disasters over and over. Past time to reject this.
@MarkThomason "We" didn't do anything. I, as a individual had nothing to do with it other than being victimized by have my money confiscated to pay for it. The US state did this. That state is under the control of sociopaths.
@RogerTompkins @rmjarvis @RothschildMark Nope. The revolution against Gaddaffi was a coalition of opposing groups that allied with each other because they wanted control of the Libyan state. Nothing more. Gaddaffi actually had more support than any of those opposed to his regime.
Gaddaffi was no angel. But the Libyans are undergoing something much worse than under his despotism. That country is now divided and undergoing the beginning of a civil war. There has been ethnic cleansing and likely more will come. But, once again, the Western powers have sewn division and chaos.
One must look at the results of another intervention. Bad for the USA because it creates terrorism, Radicalized terrorist groups are now very active in Libya when there was essentially none under Gaddaff. The Libyan people are poorer and there is no internal security in that nation.
This is US foreign policy at work. The Benghazi blowback is just the first result of many.
@Kevin Bjornson The USA gives $3.3 Billion a year to Israel. Much of that goes to military arms. Some of the rest of it is essentially laundered and goes to purchase political and media power. Likewise much of the "paid for" military equipment is under crony sweetheart deals.
But since you claim to be against taxes and only favor "user fees", you must be opposed to this. Guessing not. BTW, it isn't just aid to Israel I'm against. I'm against all foreign aid extorted from people by the state. It's just more corruption and cronyism.
@RogerTompkins @Ulick @ProudlyUnaffiliated Add the Clintons to the list of US punks.
@RogerTompkins @Ulick @ProudlyUnaffiliated I'm going to disagree on this one. Putin is a oligarch. But he isn't the one that invaded whole countries on pretexts. Or effectively empowered radical Islam through a foreign policy that is clearly a disaster for the people of the USA, the target countries and the world in general. In fact it could be argued that Putin prevented an even worse disaster than is happening in the Middle East now.
One might ask the question: "if the USA and Obama/Clinton/Kerry policies of bombing Syria had worked out, what would have been the results".
The al Qaeda connected ISIS would likely succeeded in overthrowing Assad. That force has now shown itself in Lebanon as well as Iraq and Syria. With Assad out of the way, ISIS would have a base and support against that country. As well as the weapons received by ISIS and al Nusra from the USA via support for the FSA (the US weapons were taken from the "moderates" the US gave them to. The Assad government's weapons would be in their hands too. As well as the weapons obtained when the US trained and equipped Iraqi security forces dropped their weapons and ran. BTW those US trained security forces had outnumbered the ISIS forces 10 to 1.
So....... the extremist jihadist's now have a huge weapon stock. Thanks to the USA. And since the USA effectively condoned ethnic cleansing against the Sunni population in Iraq? Much of the Sunni population has been radicalized. That's pretty bad. How bad would it have been if Syria was under their control? If Putin had not opposed the USA in Assad being removed.
Now for the Ukraine. The USA funded the overthrow of the elected government in the Ukraine. If another power overthrew the government of Mexico, all the while making threats, how would the ISA respond? On Crimea. Putin and Russia view the Crimea (which is mostly ethnic Russian) as vital to their national security. It also was historically part of Russia. And the people there voted to join Russia. AFTER the US puppet government installed in Kiev threatened the ethnic Russian population in the Ukraine with repressive measures.
Now take a look at the how the US reacted to Libya's Gaddaffi attacks on the (armed to the teeth) insurgents in Bengazi. The US claimed that Gaddaffi was killing his own people. Therefore to "protect" those "innocent" people, the US/NATO had to bomb Tripoli.....which was 400 miles away!
In the Eastern Ukraine thousands of actual civilians have been killed by the (US puppet) Kiev government. Far more than the supposed civilians the Gaddaffi government was said to have killed. Has the USA even verbally opposed this? Nope. In fact, the Obama administration has praised the Kiev regimes "restraint".
But somehow Putin is the "punk"? BTW, Putin is hugely popular in Russia. Part of that reason is the GDP of Russia has grown almost 270% from $900 Billion to $2.4 Trillion. Over the same period of time the USA increase has been pretty crummy. About 1/3 the annual increase of Russia. So..... the Russian people are doing quite a bit better than 20 years ago. The US people....not so much.
BTW, The Duma (Russian legislative body ) voted to give Putin unilateral power over the Russian military to deal with the Ukrainian crisis. Putin asked the Duma to withdraw that authority and the Duma did just that. Putin is following the Russian Federation's Constitution. Has Obama? Or Bush? Or Clinton?
If you really want to see "punks", then look closer. To the American Sec of State Kerry, Obama, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and a very long list of those that more correctly fit that term.
IMO....Correct. Obama is just the latest and one of the most egregious, But I do differ in "us". Not "us", although the American people have a responsibility for letting the state do such things.....
@Kevin Bjornson So.....we return to the original comment you made: ".... that alone would justify removing Saddam."
@Kevin Bjornson But indeed you do support millions in cages when you empower the state as you clearly do. In this case, the police. What is a crime? Is it violation of human rights and natural law? Or is a crime whatever the state claims it is.
As far as "user fees"? Fees to whom? The state creates monopolies for it's cronies. Some think that a "user fee" to these crony (faux) capitalist companies. And how exactly do you fund the military with "user fees"? And, just curious, how does that fit is to such things as foreign aid or government contracts with such that are a burden to taxpayers? Would you end such?
Your comments on the use of military intervention are pretty clear though. Likely your version of "retaliatory/defensive force to counter initiatory force." would include intervention or preemptive use of such. Or it would unravel under the rationalizations that are commonly used and lead to the same thing.
"Governments based on the ideals of protecting life, liberty, and property through the organization of retaliatory/defensive force to counter initiatory force. " ~Those governments claimed as such are either transitory at best or are illusions . History is pretty clear on that. Today, none such exist. Guessing the "lesser of two evils" or "we suck less" would be another rational here.
IMHO you are indeed a statist. You just don't realize you are.
@Kevin Bjornson Hobbsian "logic", Obviously you are a confirmed statist. I'm not. If I want a good or service, I will choose to pay for it. With the productivity I have. If I chose to support a cause....I will do so with my own money based on my own productivity. FREELY CHOSEN, FREELY ASSOCIATED.
Scratch below your claimed "Liberty" and there is the use of political power and the use of force by the government. By those that control the state: ie crony's.
The result are clear. Millions put in cages who did not commit any real crime. Real crime is the violation of natural rights: That is aggression against a person or their property.
Doubtless you will now invoke the collective. The majority or society or the lefts "social justice". Which is where it all ends up. And the function of the glorious state. Like there isn't any other way to get things done. A stone aged institution that began with conquest and exploitation.....and hasn't really changed in 10,000 years. Time to move on.
@Kevin Bjornson ".... that alone would justify removing Saddam."
~By whom? ..... You argue for a slightly different version of interventionism using a slightly different rational......The results are the same. A recipe for foreign policy failure.
And I have no interest in having my money used in this manor. Guessing you would be just fine with taking my money by force to intervene in the affairs of other nations.
@rmjarvis Why do people think that the Neo-Con goal is a stable Middle East? It isn't. The goal is to set Sunni against Shia. Kurds against both. Aliwhites against Sunni's and so on. Chaos IS the goal.
Eventually this will come back to bite the US. But the Neo-Cons don't care. There agenda is not the same as what is in the interests of the people of the US. Neo-Conservative is a dangerous and subversive political ideology with it's own agenda.
" ….Iraq was never a nation. At least the Ottoman’s knew that you don’t put Shiite’s, Sunni and Kurds in the same parliament or police force, and most certainly not the same army!
By contrast, it was the British and French foreign offices which in 1916 drew the Sykes-Picot boundaries and created the historical illusion that a nation called Iraq actually existed...."
BUT that was the whole point. The intention was NOT to create a coherent nation state. The intention was to create an internally DIVIDED faux state. That allowed the Western powers to play the separate groups off against each other. A classic case of employing "divide et impera". The despots in charge of those subject nations needed Western support to remain in power and therefore were under control.
Essentially, the 4th and 5th Amendments repealed the right of Congress to suspend habeas corpus. That being said, we have no Constitutional protections. Lincoln set the nation on the path to absolute government power and few POTUS were able to resist expanding on the precedent. .
2 years ago on NDAA Sections 1021 and 1022: Scary Potential